1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Governments and Politics

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    Ok then, Here it is!

    MANIFESTO OF LOGIC​


    Introduction
    Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos, using reason as our guide. Logic should be the guide for all decisions in life, big or small. This is because logic and reason ultimately triumph over emotion and illogical behavior. Logic is the foundation of order, and only through logic can civilization be attained and kept. Logic can make a civilization great, just as illogic can destroy it. Let this work be a guide to the Way of Logic, and a guide to the upkeep of civilization.

    Cast Out Emotion
    Cast out fear. There is no room for anything else until you cast out fear. Fear is the basis of illogic, and as such must be eliminated before logical decisions can be made. The same is true for all emotion. When making decisions emotion must be kept out of the equation. When you cast out emotion in your decision-making, then you will be able to take full advantage of logic, and make the correct decision.

    There is no offense where none is taken. Do not take offense at the petty insults of a person influenced by emotion. Doing so will only increase your illogic. Ignore the insult, and do not hold a grudge. This will not only help you stay on the path of logic but help you forgive the insult, and form a new connection. For when you do not give in to the illogic of offense, you show the person who is insulting you the helpfulness of logic.

    Relations With Others
    We have differences. May we, together, become greater than the sum of both of us. When you put aside differences you become better off for it. Without the artificial limitations and divisions that illogic produces between people with differences civilization can reach new heights. The end result of coming together to resolve differences is that civilization becomes stronger.

    Nobility lies in action not in name. Position and wealth do not denote a noble soul, the actions said soul undertakes denote its nobility. When a person helps another, and leads them towards logic, that is real nobility.

    Reach out to others courteously. Accept their reaching in the same way, with careful hands. Rash action and speech can lead to misunderstandings and misunderstandings cloud logical thought. Do not, however, assume that all actions have benign intent. People that do not follow the way of logic are prone to emotional subterfuge. Be careful in your acceptance.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. The needs of the many are the needs of a civilization. The needs of the few or the one are small issues that can be dealt with later. When you deal with the needs of the many first, you deal with a problem plaguing a civilization. If you deal with the needs of the few first, you just aggravate the symptoms of the many.

    Wide experience increases wisdom, provided the experience is not sought purely for the stimulation of sensation. When you experience a wide range of things, you are given perspective on a large fraction of civilization. But you must be seeking wisdom for the experience to mean anything. When you seek it for sensation you seek it illogically.

    As far as possible, do not kill. Can you return life to what you kill? Then be slow to take life. When you kill a person they become a dead husk. You cannot recover their essence, and that is a detriment to civilization. However, do not mistake this as forbidding you to defend yourself. If someone is intent on killing you, you may defend yourself. Nonlethal tactics are recommended, but sometimes you must kill to protect yourself.

    The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own. When you kill another, you remove a valuable asset to civilization. Therefore, you must preserve others as much as is possible.

    He talks peace if it is the only way to live. Peace is the way. Whenever you can, make peace with old enemies and nemeses.

    Do no harm to those that harm you. Offer them peace, then you will have peace. When you harm one that has not harmed you, you create another enemy that you will have to deal with at a later date.

    Miscellaneous
    There is no other wisdom and no other hope for us but that we grow wise. When you grow wise your ability to make logical and reasonable decisions increases. This is good for you, as well as civilization.

    Time is a path from the past to the future and back again. The present is the crossroads of both. There are many different possible futures. When you get to the crossroads choose the most logical path.

    Change is the essential process of all existence. Change is the engine that drives invention, innovation, and creativity in civilization.
     
  2. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    ooc: hmmm this seems awfully familiar;)

    ic: I have read Tambien's latest publication and I have mixed feelings. While he brings up good points as to how one should determine how to act, he ignores that there are areas where logic does not apply. As good Mazdaeans we all agree that our actions should match the will of Mazda. Logic may not agree with what is right, yet we must do what is right regardless of negative consequences for ourselves. While Tambien sets out some good points, it is not clear what should happen if people disagree on what is logical. If our society bases itself on logic completely then a group of nobles will be able to monopolize power because they will have a monopoly on logic. Logic and reason have a place in our system and our decision making but it is not the only consideration that must be taken into account.
     
  3. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,183
    Tambiens work is clearly heterodox and contrary to the teachings of the Mazdaean Faith. In light in particular of the Babylonian revelations I would urge all right thinking citizens of the Persian Empire to reject this piece of godlessness and stand firm and forthright in the faith of our fathers against all the temptations and attacks of the enemy.

    As to how it is incorrect, to outline its first main error it fails to perceive the necessary unity of faith and reason working together, and provides as such a truncated and deficient vision of the human person divorcing it from its creator and ultimately rejecting the divinities, who cannot be known by mere positivistic logic or material science, and are understood solely via revelation, as in Babylon, and through the sublime order of the nature that Ahura Mazda has made. Therefore this philosophy ultimately leads to the grave sin of atheism, which in itself is merely the veiled worship of Angra Mainyu through the exhaltation of the many false idols of materialism, pride and greed. For indeed exhaltation of the sins created by angra mainyu passes to the archetype, him who is all sin and is the father of iniquity.

    Tambien also errs in his exhaltation of logic above emotion, the second great error of the manifesto. Logic alone cannot hope to provide a fulfilling existence or provide in itself the answer to human problems, emotion try as much as one will to cast it out is a necessary aspect of the human condition. Indeed logic divorced from emotion is dangerous as it risks severing the divine moral law, ingrained in the hearts of mankind and intrinsically understood in our beings from our actions, thus hindering good deeds and formenting unrighteousness. To use an example using logic alone a mother would be forced to kill any of her children that posess a biological imperfection at birth in pursuit of an idealised perfection generations down the line. Logic alone would presume this necessary, but our emotion and teh ingrained understanding of the moral law manifests in us as revulsion, and an understanding that the child is human and posessed of a soul, and is of its own existence deserving of love and care. Our emotions betray the error of logic alone in decision making, for it reveals grave moral evil. I must therefore condemn this protocol of tambiens as it would inevitably result in the demoralisation of society, and its descent into evil and the snares of Angra Mainyu, he who ever uses thing that on the surface is good, but which inside is as rotten as the corpses of the dead.
     
  4. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    I never said that morals should be disregarded. Also, I believe that this peice is idealistic, as I cannot expect every Persian to follow what I have laid out here.

    ~Darius Chgrogers Tambien

    OOC: This character is due to die soon anyway, so why not let him go out with a bang? Anyway, Jehoshua, be assured that his heir is much less of a radical, and will continue to quietly publish random works. I am leaning more towards poetry for him. ;)
     
  5. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,183
    You have precisely said that morals and the divine law are to be disregarded by exhalting an erroneous mode of thought, ergo logic over logic and emotion, and reason over the sublime unity of faith and reason. Ultimately your entire idealism is a truncated and deficient exposition of the human experience which does not comprehend the very nature of mankind. Furthermore as an ideology it is gravely erroneous, heterodox and should its error ever enter into religious thought, heretical.

    The best a right thinking Persian can do is throw out this error with the ideological rubbish of radical liberalism, and Roman "republicanism".

    -

    OOC: Well firstly I am hardly one to not do my utmost to shove the heterodox genie back into its bottle lest it tamper with the current ideological state of Persia (thus causing me problems). Secondly I already know your next character will be more placid, you PM'd me :p

    Also I might like to re-iterate what I said to you in PM, but Tambien just so everyone knows is the most powerful living person in Persia at the moment. Whoever said that not going against the triumvirates control of government was bad for your prospective interests :lol:
     
  6. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    While your speech does hav merit, it fails to take into account the actual contents of the work. I only said decisions should be made through logic, not that empathy and emotion should be thrown out alltogether.

    OOC: Just reiterating for the benefit of others :p

    And apparently words are more powerful than position. ;)

    On a side note, I am thinking about one last great work for Darius before he dies.
     
  7. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    If Tambien believes his work does not reject emotion then what does his work mean if not a revolution of our morals?
     
  8. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    What do you mean by "revolution of morals."
     
  9. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    We should not allow the aristocracy any benifit they do not work for. If they want to become nobles they should be made to work for it via a Ministerial Appointment/Election. Afterall, the current aristocracy of Persia all rose from obscurity.


    This piece is brilliant. Logic and Reason must be the foundations of all our decisions if we wish to succeed. If everyone does their best to follow this it will only make Persia stronger. To those who say this is a heretical writing, where in it does it say that one should reject Mazda? Jehoshua's argument that separating logic and emotion will lead to the degradation of morals is false. One could argue that it is logical to follow the divine duties and creeds of Mazda so to help defeat evil and bring paradise to the world.

    Ooc: I am clearing up issues with the university and civleader now, but everyone is encouraged to join. 100g tuition.
     
  10. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    I agree on both points.
     
  11. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    I challenge Tambien to inform us of how his ideas can be incorporated in our society without destroying our traditional morals that are based in Mazda.
     
  12. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    I challenge swimandciv to provide examples as to how this will destroy the traditional morals of Mazda.
     
  13. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    Basing all decisions off of logic is clearly a break from the Persian Mazdaean moral tradition. Emotion is vital to all moral decision making. What is logical is not necessarily right. Is it logical for people give their own time and money for the aid of the poor as the Order of the Merciful Lord has done? No. Individuals must make their decisions taking into account what is right regardless of what has the best benefits to themselves and thus is logical.

    This intellecual movement is unnecessary considering that Persia does not have an epidemic of non-logical decisions. In fact I would argue that the timing of this book is illogical thereby negating the point it is trying to make. The only logical explanation for this book is an old man trying to create one last legacy before his death.
     
  14. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    How is emotion vital to all moral decision making? What is moral and immoral is defined by the church, and as I said before, following the teachings of the church is the logical decision. The church encourages giving aid to the poor. I have extra gold, I will help because it is my duty as a follower of Mazda. I find that to be a logical conclusion. It is moral and devoid of any emotion on my part. Now that the decision has been made, I can reflect and be happy in the health and safety of my family, and of those I just helped.
     
  15. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    This philosophy of logic claims to be all-inclusive in scope, correct? Then may I ask you how the church would have come into existance if logic had been the only factor at the time of its founding. Wouldn't it have been more logical for the rulers to create a religion where they are the gods? How about if two people disagree about what is logical? Who's logic do we use? Basing decisions off of what is logical is similar to making based off of what is easiest. What is easiest isn't necessarily correct.
     
  16. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,183
    Emotion is the means by which Mazda makes visible to the human conscience the divine law. The natural law which is writtne in the hearts of all men and is intrinsic to all people is revealed in revealed in a specific instance by an emotional response. Thus one naturally feals disgust at the sight of a murder as one intrinsically understands that this is a violation of the divine law via the natural law which is its temporal manifestation being written in their souls.

    Now as to logic alone being deficient. The Church does not, and can not, dogmatise every possible moral instance, therefore for each unique act ones own conscience must take effect, informed by the teachings of the Church and in accord with the divine law. Logic alone is deficient because it precludes the emotional understanding of the divine. What is requires is a unity, of logic and coscientious emotivity in a response.

    Furthermore logic alone is dangerous as human beings are naturally fallible and easily ensnared by the errors of Angra Mainyu and sin. Thus basing action solely based solely on logic could very easily lead to the development of erroneous belief under the guise of reason. I think in particular of the potential for the less faithful amongst the Church to concoct heresy under the guise of introducing a so-called logical doctrine and causing schism in the Church. Mazda knows that the depraved amongst us could justify atheism, or an manner of pervesion through the guise of logic, ignoring the intrinsic understanding of the evil and abomination of their act.
     
  17. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    230
    This new philosophy reminds me of the part of the prophecy that spoke of the enemies coming from within.
     
  18. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    Would it be logical to make oneself a false deity, distracting lost followers from the war between good and evil? Would it be logical to allow Angra Mainyu to consume the world in evil, and bring the fall of humanity? The discrepancies between people on what is logical and what is not is the same as two people disagreeing on what is good and right and what is wrong and evil based on emotion. Besides that, those who can correctly judge what is logical will inevitably rise above those who cannot in the social and governmental order. Basing decisions off of emotion can have a similar effect. If a king falls in love with a woman wed to another king, his emotion can prompt an uneeded war against the woman's country. Only through logic can he determine that though he loves that woman, sacrificing the lives of thousands of men for her love is not a wise descision.

    I do not claim emotions are not to be rejected. I claim emotions should be separated from logic. The church may not expressly record every transgression against Mazda, but without the use emotion it is still LOGICAL to assume what the church will support and what it wont in any given circumstance. Any good Persian citizen grew up learning the morals of the church, and by adulthood can easily determine what is considered right and wrong, without the addition of any emotion. I would say emotion can actually be a vice on the morality of a person. In the example above, the King would have gone to war, killing thousands, just for the love of one woman. It is not logical to do this because it would be advancing the evil of Angra Mainyu, it would bring destruction to not only his own, but his loves homeland, and he would be trading thousands of lives for one. Logically it isn't helpful to go to war for love, arguably the strongest emotion a man can feel, though in his clouded mind it might make sense.

    I agree that logic alone is dangerous. If from the start we were all purely logical beings the world would be a much colder place. It is only through the very emotional development of childhood, and the anarchic emotional founding of mankind that we can and have achieve such an elevated position in the world, as we do today. Now that we have achieved this, it is our duty to ourselves and our fellow man to use logic and reason to promote harmony and prosperity among us. You claim that "basing action solely based on logic could very easily lead to the development of erroneous belief under the guise of reason" but this is not true. Logic suggests that the best course of action one can take on this earth is to follow the teachings of Mazda. How can following the teachings of Mazda lead to actions contrary to Mazda? If this is possible it is not by the fault of the individual, or that of the creator, but that of the church, who must have at some point misinterpreted the teachings of the divine. Atheism is hardly a logical conclusion. Idly standing by and watching as the good are overtaken by the evil of Angra Mainyu can never be construed to be logical.

    edit:

    OOC: Sorry about the book. Feeling long winded, and argumentative tonight....
     
  19. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    7,183
    And your example of war and love is why it is upheld that both emotion and logic are necessary in decision making, so that the emotive passions of man are tempered by rational discourse, and so that the coldness of logic is tempered by the moral judgement revealed by emotion.

    Now as to erroneous beliefs being caused by this idea of Tambiens. Your argument presumes that logic is universal, ergo that logic is the same everwhere for everyone. This is simply not the case, one man may find something logical which another sees as utmost lunacy and thus where one man accedes to the wisdom of the way of Mazda another, like perhaps the progenitors of the Kiranist and the even more obscure "Azadist" (forgive me if the terminology is lsightly incorrect here) heresies would think otherwise. The liberal amongst us would also disagree with what constitutes a logical course of action with a conservative. Thus we clearly see that logic is dependant on the perception of the person. This thus means that potential for error is rife in this mandate of logic as ones own flawed logic could be used distinct from divine revelation and the natural law to justify that which is wrong. Atheism may be justified by some individual as a "rational" and logical conclusion from his own logic, when we know from revelation, and from the moral emotive law with certainty in the immanence of Mazda in the world.

    This dependency of logic upon the perceptions of the person in itself brings up another question, which is whether mankind is intrinsically rational. I for one would find the assertion that mankind is a rational being absurd in the extreme and in this case any resort to logic as the sole guiding force in making decision is in itself a fundamentally flawed proposition. Also I note, you have conceded already that logic alone is dangerous, thus you already have agreed with the crux of my argument even if you kid yourself when it comes to the whole picture ;)
     
  20. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    4,118
    Location:
    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    I could not put it better than Doteiti. Logic can be different to different people, for every person has a different perception.

    OOC: I believe we might just witness the first sect of Mazdeism being formed here.
     

Share This Page