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Governments and Politics

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    As I said before, if decisions are looked at logically the more logical conclusion will be chosen. It doesn't matter that people disagree on what is logical, if more people find one idea to be more logical than another than that idea will prevail and will be considered more logical. Because isn't it logical that the majority will realize which choice is better? Now this is in a perfect world. In the real world not everyone is educated enough to be trusted to make the most logical decision. It is for this reason that human arrange themselves into governments. Our form of government is an Aristocracy (though we have a king, he is chosen from the nobles), and it allows for the more educated and logical of society to decide what is best for the country.

    To the bit about logic causing error, human nature is inherently errored. Mazda gave humans the choice between right and wrong to allow us to make the right choice. Yes, some could use their "own flawed logic" to "justify that which is wrong," but that is not to say everyone will. That is not to say the majority will. Since it's founding there have been those who have rejected its teachings, and this ideology will not change that. The only way to prevent such flawed ideology is in the development of the individual as a child. Logic is the way someone thinks, whether they are blasphemous has more to do with the environment they are raised in, rather than how logical their thinking is. The reason this mandate is relevant to the time is because we are a pious society. Religious revival practically reverberates from the walls of the cities, and society is ready to look at the world with reason, without becoming corrupt in it's thinking. On top of this, my point about the more logical governing the less also applies. We, the nobles, are the ones with the power to really make a difference. The only way society as a whole can be corrupted in their logic, is if we ourselves become corrupted in our logic. As an educated man of Persia, there is no doubt in my mind of the truth of the church. My logic, and the logic of other nobles, will set the example and steer the course of society as a whole. Your family, one of the most powerful in Persia, will surely not misconstrue logic in this way. The House of Noctus, a most prestigious ruling clan of Persia, will surely not misconstrue their logic in this way. The same can be said for the other houses.

    Finally, of course mankind is not rational! We let our minds become clouded with all these different emotions that distort our individual realities. That is precisely what this Manifesto was meant to combat! It is urging the populace of Persia to use logic and reason in their decision making, and bring mankind to the ultimate goal of paradise under Mazda. Logic is not dependent on reason, logic is akin to reason! With reason comes logic, and with logic comes reason.

    ooc: That might be fun :) but i doubt Jehoshua will allow such a thing to happen. That would be the same as Martin Luther posting his list on the door of the Apostolic palace.
     
  2. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    OOC: Which actually happened. Needless to say the person that posted it....
     
  3. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    OOC: Thats comforting :lol:
     
  4. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    OOC: I never said it was GOOD news, did I? :p anyway, to find a name for the sect! Logicism? Reasonistic?
     
  5. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    OOC: Hahaha Lets not count our chickens before they hatch... I'm just trying to mediate between the liberalism of logic and the conservatism of piety.
     
  6. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    OOC: Good luck, you will need it. :D
     
  7. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    OOC: Well glad I'm here to defend your writing! Don't think they wont hold it against your future family that this specific character wrote this, because in reality we are all the same people throughout the whole game.
     
  8. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: I have limits to what I will tolerate, IC heresy is beyond that limit.

    IC;

    Firstly you imply a process where what the majority, (even if only a majority within an educated aristocracy) decides is considered right. This is erroneous, we all know that the majority is not necessarily right, indeed the majority of romans hold to the roman religion, yet we know with perfect faith that it is wrong! Whats right is right even if no one is doing it and whats wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it. Rightness is not determined by the will or logic of mankind but by the will of Ahura Mazda!

    secondly your assertion that the piety of Persia guarantees that it will not become corrupted by error born from the incorrect exhaltation of logic above other modes of thought is also erroneous. Do you not recall the prophecies of Babyloparsa where Ahura Mazda himself warned us that the enemy would corrupt some from amongst us to sow error and apostasy amongst Persia! The Enemy is strong, do not forget that and his temptations are many. He prowls the earth ensnaring souls by deceit and honeyed poison. The Mandate of Logic you so advocate is a sample of his erorr, for through its outward goodness deep within are sown the seeds of our destruction, for it takes only a single man to fall into error, for the rot to set in and begin its slow decay of the faith born of the sublime unity of faith and reason, logic and emotion, the spiritual and the temporal that has vivified Persia and through the grace of Mazda made our empire an illuminating beacon to all the nations of the world. In addition to this you forget the temptation of the pious to fanaticism, which is a perversion of righteous zeal. logic leading to fanaticism is error just as logic leading to atheism is error, although of course the latter is of a graver and more abominable nature.

    Finally your understanding of the cause of human rationality is flawed. Human nature fundamentally posesses a dualism between light and dark, the creative influence of Ahura Mazda and the corrupting influence of Angra Mainyu, this dichotomy tears man in multiple direction as the internal spirit wars within itself and leads to the perversrion of both emotion and logic when they are not tempered by a mutually enriching relationship between the two and by a keen faith in the righteous path of Ahura Mazda. Neither emotion or logic is the cause of irrationality, but rather the influence of Angra Mainyu in human nature leads to the perversion of both from their pure intent. This perversion of course is repaired by the grace of Ahura Mazda and by the aid of the Amesha Spenta and the Yazata's.
     
  9. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Mid Session Event

    A lot of international talk in Persia.

    Artaparsa hosted the first Council among all the world leaders (except for Rome). Leaders from Arabia, Siam and Turkey arrived at Artaparsa for the council.

    The leaders of the world were greeted by an enthusiastic crowd. Not everyone shared this feeling however. Small riots and protests from Babylonian communities in Artaparsa protested against the arrival of the foreign leaders. Security Forces were able to keep them away from the main event. Little violence was reported.

    The Artaparsan Archer Division in Artaparsa was seen surrounding the shrine of the middle district. After an hour of uncertainty, the captain has finally told the people what occurred:

    “Arasti Aetava commited suicide when apprehended by the guard for questioning over a rumoured cabal plotting criminal activities in Artaparsa of which the government had gained knowledge, and which we believe Arasti Aetava posessed information about.”

    The Priest will be given the funeral rites befitting a priest and be treated with dignity. The satrap expresses regret and sadness at his death, and he hopes that Ahura Mazda will have mercy on his self-murder in light of his weakness and grant him salvation.


    The elections for Minister of the People are beginning. Candidates may submit their name to join the race. Xerxes II Mahvash was the first to submit his name.

    “It has been a long time since Persia had a Minister of the People. It is time we had someone capable, intelligent and loyal as Minister, now more then ever, when our empire faces new hardships and the voice of the people is needed.” candidate Xerxes II Mahvash said.

    Upper Class citizens in Persepolis ask for a Prime Minister to be elected by all lords of the empire. They are unhappy this position has been vacant for so long.

    Babylonians in Babyloparsa demand for a decision to be taken pertaining to their building orders. They demand a temple is built, thus expanding the temple/palace already there.
    The King of Helsinki has arrive to Persepolis, and was greeted by Prince Kourosh Noctus at the palace. Helsinki's upper class awaits their fate.

    Speaking of Helsinki, there are many riots and skirmishes in the city. It is advised to not travel to Noctusan without proper security until the Finnish resistance is put down.

    The Upper class, the literate, and the students of Persia followed intently the Manifeto of Logic and the debates between its supporters, like Doteiti II, and its opposition, like Swimciv Rudaki and Ardeshir II Artaparsi. Many have refused to buy Darius Tambien's new work after Ardeshir II deemed it a heresy. However, since he is not the High Priest, many still feel that the Manifesto is not yet an official heresy. The public opinion is divided. Many admire the author's works and agree of the use of logic, but many also agree with what church officials are saying. Many ask if the High Priest could state his opinion on this. People below the Upper class agree completely with the church official's views, and oppose the manifesto. At the sound of prophecy, Babylonian groups set out to burn the manifestos that could corrupt Persia from within.

    Speaking of the High Priest, our church's leader has fallen ill, and it is unlikely he will publicly appear until he is better. The faithful in Noctusan pray for the well being of the High Priest Saro II Artaparsi.

    Deaths
    none

    Session 15 Turn 2 has now begun.
     
  10. filli_noctus

    filli_noctus Hmmn

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    I have been asked to weigh in on this matter by certain parties. Now this issue is best argued by priests and philosophers and I am just a humble administrator of this great, but mortal, empire.
    It seems to me that those supporting Tambiens' position, including Tambien himself, are arguing for a position different from that put forth in the manifesto whilst those arguing against it are arguing against the contents of the manifesto not the position put forward by their opponents.
    The Wise Lord has not forbidden logic as He does not demand unquestioning, blind faith.
    Now as I see it emotion is a manifestation of faith and logic is a manifestation of reason. I encourage all participants in this debate to consider this axiom - "Faith and reason are as the shoes on your feet, you can get much further if you have both than you can with just one."
     
  11. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    public speech

    I thank His Majesty for supporting my firm determination on the necessity of upholding Faith and Reason, Emotion and Logic in once interaction with the world.

    As to the matter of the manifesto, I would like to clarify that I have not called it heresy, and indeed it is not within my capacity to determine. What I have said is that the manifesto is heterodox, ergo it is contrary to the orthodoxy of the Mazdaean faith. This does not automatically mean it is heresy, there is prospect for legitimate theological opinion on matters which are not dogmatic to the faith. However that said I can say that the manifesto is an exposition of an opinion that is potentially heretical, and as such I would urge all the faithful to reject it in lieu of a future authoritative determination by the High Priest, which unfortunately is unlikely to happen soon due to our High Priests illness, let us pray for his health and wellbeing.

    -

    On a separate matter I would like to address the concerns of the babylonians of Artaparsa in regards to the congress. It has come to my attention that in light of the prophecy you think that this council heralds the progression of the events prophesised. I can assure you that I personally, and I am sure the King will concur also, will not take actions that compromise the faith. Indeed in addition to more mundane agreements and diplomatic niceties I can report that we are making progress with Siam when it comes to permitting the evangelisation of the Mazdaean religion in that country. I will also mention in the strongest possible terms that a condition for restoring diplomatic relations with Rome is that they open themselves up to foreign religions, including the mazdaean religion. I will not forget the memory of the Roman martyrs for the faith, and I will not have their blood, shed long ago, bled in vain. I am certain that His Majesty the King, a pious and upright ruler, will likewise make the opening of Rome a condition for relations with Persia, and indeed when it comes to the prophetic warnings, opening Rome to evangelisation is clearly a necessary action to prevent such evil from ever coming to pass.
     
  12. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    What my esteemed king says is very true. Faith and Reason do go hand and hand, and are good in a pair. I have been arguing this point all along. A misconception among my opposition is that faith and emotion are synonymous. This is not so. One does not need excessive emotion to be faithful to the Church of Mazda. On the contrary, one doesn't need much emotion at all to have faith in the church, and in our creator. The Manifesto of Logic doesn't argue that we need to give up faith and use logic. It is urging us to not allow our emotion to blind us, to use our logic to make the best decision given the circumstance. My colleague's instruction to reject the manifesto as heresy because it has potential to be heretical is just as harmful as spreading heresy. Refusing to consider a new way of thinking based on hearsay will only lead to ignorance. Disagreeing with something because you believe it to be wrong is good. Disagreeing with something because someone tells you to can be harmful.
     
  13. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    The esteeemed Doteiti is correct. I NEVER would urge the abandonment of Mazdaeism. To abondon my faith, my God, and lead the world to Chaos is not logical. It is in fact one of the worst examples of emotion going out of control. And remember, "Not everything is as it seems." Remember this, as sometimes what appears to be logic is actually emotion, and vice versa.

    ~Darius Chgrogers Tambien
     
  14. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Misinterpretation I think not, you are honeying your words to try and convince people of your error. If you are so much in accord with faith and reason, then why have you until now not even used the word faith in any of your speeches. Until now you have not even used the words faith and reason in the same sentence!

    In addition to that why were you arguing against me for so long when in my very first response to Tambiens work I explicitly said that the manifesto was erroneous because it exhalts logic alone, and that faith and reason are necessary in addition of course to a union of emotive and logical intelligence to coincide with that. I think that you are simply changing your tune now that the King has said his piece.

    In addition to your honeyed words to the mazdaean ear, I note that you still reveal the gravity of error. You say disagreeing with something because someone tells you to is harmful, or that condemning something because its an opinion that is potentially heretical is as harmful as the abomination itself. The first is clearly erroneous in that upholding those words leads to disobedience, where the Church's authority, when the Church when its hierarchs collectively, or the High Priest condemns something, is rejected because "disagreeing because someone tells you to is harmful. The second is simply ludicrous, a potentially heretical opinion is in such a position because it is heterodox and deviant. It is thus wrong to uphold it in the knowledge that it is very likely heretical with the sole reason it is not explicitly condemned as such now being because the High Priest is ill and thus not in a condition to publicly make a declaration.

    And to conclude of course Tambien, who's manifesto does not even make mention of the Mazdaean religion or of faith and explicitly rejects all other forms of reasoning apart from pure logic (which dot80 himself condemned when pressed, another example of flip-flopping and changing his tune) likewise only mentions faith when the King intercedes. I on the other hand mentioned it, and faith and reason, in my very first response to which the advocates of this erroneous theology were responding too!

    It is quite clear that they are hypocritically changing their position as error is want to do in order to pass their error off as something good.
     
  15. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    I felt no need to mention faith, as it should be a given.
     
  16. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    You felt no need to mention faith because your ideology is fundamentally dangerous and contradictory towards a genuine faith which depends not so much on logic but on divine grace. Blessed are those who see and yet believe in our Wise Lord through the perfection of unfailing faith.
     
  17. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    And provide to me the exact passage that says "Abandon faith, for it is an emotion" Oh wait, that's right, you wont find it.
     
  18. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Your manifesto implicitly rejects pure faith because it upholds as virtue pure logic over not only emotion but anything that is not logic (ergo illogic) I quote.

    Faith does not derive its source from logic, it derives its source from divine grace. Your manifesto makes no mention of faith which is by its nature distinct from logic, and explicitly rejects anything "illogical". Therefore due to the excision of any mention of faith in the manifesto the only conclusion is that faith in your ideology does not come under logical thinking, and is therefore illogic which you explicitly condemn. A natural product therefore of the manifest is a lessening of faith and a rejection of its necessity, this of course leading either to the route of a following of the word of the law, without any true faith to vivify that following, or otherwise to apostasy.
     
  19. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

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    It would seem to me that the supporters of the Manifesto of Logic have decided to follow a course of bending the words in the manifesto until they have absolutely no meaning. They are ignoring the text put forth by Tambien and are instead arguing by adjusting their claims to meet those of their opponents. The great author Tambien has decided to advance a dangerous text but now its supporters are backing down from its meaning so now there is no meaning. I still hold the the text is wrong, but the argument on it has gotten to the point where nothing is being said.
     
  20. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    I see that you can do nothing but resort tothesametiredargument. As there is obviously no point in continuing this conversation as it is apparent your ears are closed to anything but your own misconceptions I am terminating it.

    Public Speech
    People of Persia! See how set in their ways he has become in his ways? He only spouts the same tired argument which Doteiti and I have already refuted.
     

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