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Governments and Politics

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    Admitting that I am not an expert on an issue does not mean I am not familiar with what is going on. And if you think you will be able to do anything in that field that is not approved by an Artaparsi and a Noctus you are naive, so my response is more than adequate as we will not be able to do very much about the situations. About the crime, it is easy to create a plan when one just like it was already suggested.

    In response to your comment about quick fixes:
    Just because something is a quick fix doesn't mean it isn't valuable. By building a circus we can appease the population as quickly as possible, and it will allow us to deal with other more pressing issues. If you notice In my initial platform I also wish to secure the spices, but neither you nor I can garuntee this, and building colosseums is out of the question because of the high cost to maintain them. Your "long term plan" is actually quite similar to mine, except yours guarantees solutions that involve variables (the spices) that are not under our control, while mine realistically uses a plan that we can implement for sure in addition to the hope that the variables can be swung in our favor.
     
  2. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

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    I recognize the fact that the Artaparsi and Noctus control foreign policy. This does not bother me considering that I mostly agree with them. The original questions posed two straightforward questions concerning foreign policy. You failed to give any answer to those questions while I demonstrated an understanding of foreign policy and a vision for the future.

    Your economic plan does not demonstrate how you plan to get the spices while I have a clear plan for that. You continue to ignore how that is related to the budget issue. While you plan to solve each issue individually, I plan to solve them together at lower cost and at higher success because I recognize how they are connected. In my political career, I have already taken steps to solving some of the problems we face while I have yet to hear of many of your accomplishments.
     
  3. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    This talk by candidate Rudaki of integrating Turkey into the empire disturbs me, sure it can simply mean deepened co-operation but it can also be taken in another way. The Ottoman Empire is our friend, coreligionist and firm ally and is a sovereign and independent state, it is totally innapropriate to consider the latter understanding that Rudaki's foreign policy possibly implies. I for one look forward to many aeons of good relations with Turkey against mutual threats joined together in fraternity as we are by our mutual faith in Ahura Mazda.

    Fortunately in regards to your proposition you are correct in that I as foreign minister, and ultimately the King as the highest official of state have oversight of foreign policy. The Prime ministers duties fortunately do not extend into the individual ministries areas of concern.

    -

    ooc: um the Sultan is currently in the Empire, don't go talking about assimilationist policy when the Sultan who is currently an exceedingly close ally can hear you! For the sake of continued good relations I now have to make this speech to ensure our relations don't go flying... like a stone.
     
  4. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

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    OOC: sorry about that.

    I am afraid that some of mystatements may have been misinterpreted by the visiting sultan. I do not wish to threaten turkey's independence in any way. I merely wish to continue to cultivate our already fruitful alliance. I assure you that Turkey is and always will be afriend of Persia though my opinion on the matter is unimportant.
     
  5. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    OOC: no problem, I basically had to condemn you though considering our good relations and the fact my main character is married to his niece ;)
     
  6. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    Actually, I answered every question asked. And the only reoccurring plan in your platform is to spend money, which we don't have. 300g is not enough to buy a mint/market, rekindle relations with Hanoi, and buy a courthouse. Not only that, but throwing money at an issue does't resolve it. It will take more than gold to rekindle relations. I also fail to see how my suggested spending of 600g (ooc: that's the cost of a courthouse correct?) costs more than yours of some 1000g at the very minimum, in addition you cannot claim to have higher success because neither of us have won the position as of yet. You are the head of one charity, hardly a champion of our time. My family also owns a charity as well, big deal. Also, I have only just come of age. As a minor I was very limited in what I can do . On the other hand, if you look at the history of our families, which has the most history in political office? Which has the most history in the office of Prime Minister? Though I personally am younger, I have learned from a long history of Doteitis, and my platform is more realistic. You plan to purchase a mint/market place than raise enough money and get the spice. Do you know how long that will take? In the mean time the population will be getting more unhappy, while the deficit is reduced by only a couple of gold and our units are disbanding from lack of pay.
     
  7. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Fortunately none of your spending proposals would be considered or implemented by the King right now considering we are in an economic crisis and don't have money to spend. Swimcivs proposal thus becomes redundant because the buildings would already be constructed by the time we have money in the bank. Dot80's proposal is also not really that unique considering a courthouse is already on the cards anyway once we have cash to burn.

    Other than the courthouse we are likely to be engaging in research agreements with our allies once we have money. Especially considering Rome has knights (which is why my erlier suggested research path puts the pikemen producing tech nice and early on the queue).
     
  8. swimandciv

    swimandciv Warlord

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    My plan involves steps. First we must produce good making buildings and switch citizens to commerce. Then we must use that money to get spices which will increase happiness which will grow population which will make money which will buy courthouse which decreases unhappiness which grows population shall I continue?

    As to your unprovoked personal attack: I individually came from an obscure poor family and have risen to a senior ministry. Meanwhile you are a young man who has been given everything his whole life and you think you are entitled because of your family history. I seek to maintain Persia under solid rule.
     
  9. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: and that family history hasn't always been good as well, suspicion of coup involvement, excommunication (and de-excommunication), advocacy of the Manifesto of Logic.... That said there has been some good as well, Jasmine Doteiti served admirably as peoples minister.
     
  10. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    This long term plan will never work! Just as Jehoshua has pointed out, by the time we have the money to afford what you plan we will have already built it. Even say we had enough for one mint or one market, it'd deplete our treasury and the remaining deficit will force us to disband our armies. The spices can be had through other means than money, spending the gold we have to do something we don't need gold for is foolish, besides that by the time we have the money to bribe them (assuming they can be bribed) we could have already finished a circus and appeased the population. This long term plan (that you have no power to implement) is much to slow to fix the problems at hand in a timely manner.

    In regards to the "unprovoked personal attack" you will remember that I originally wanted to keep things civil.

    Calling me a radical, when I had never done anything to suggest I was a radical. And trumpeting that Persia would come to ruin under my administration when I had done nothing but show respect to you and Jehoshua.

    You made it personal by trying to use your own credentials to make up for the faults in your plan, than insulting mine. I simply responded with the reasons you have not heard much from me, and showed that my family history indicates a long line of trustworthy public officials. Now you are telling me what I think. I apologize I don't roll over in the face of criticism. This whole debate could have been avoided if you would have simply allowed our answers to speak for themselves, instead of attacking mine. And another note, we do not rule Persia. Persia is ruled by his grace, the sovereign ruler of Persia.


    occ: I'd like proof I was part of the coup :mischief: The excommunication was all political, and it was reconciled, and the manifesto of logic is hardly a bad thing. Oh, and not only Jasmine but Doteiti II, and Delir. Besides the point wasn't that they were all great, it was that they were all given positions, and that traditionally every member of my family has been trusted with one, while his family as a whole hasn't had nearly as much political experience.
     
  11. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: Ah but it has been at the vanguard of the Church of Mazda, thats a ringing endorsement :goodjob:. Sure his fiscal policy is crap, but we all know that it will never happen and is thus totally irrelevant to considerations of electing him.
     
  12. chgrogers

    chgrogers Prince

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    Dear Anonymous,

    I have read your proposal and reject all of the terms.

    Sincerely Kambriz Chgrogers
     
  13. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: hmm the anonymous letter, I got one of those although it was merely a vague threat :lol:, I might have to look into that.
     
  14. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    ooc: well seemingly we have won the debate because there has been no response from the opposition.... that might weigh heavily on the minds of the voters.
     
  15. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: voters = the highest Lords of Persia. I hardly think your little debate is relevant to their voting interests.
     
  16. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    ooc: I am talking about the debate over the manifesto. Either way it doesn't make much of a difference, I think most of the lords already have their vote in mind, and the issues wont sway them.
     
  17. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: that would be because there was an interesting political argument going on ;)

    -

    IC:

    There is no mention of faith and as you say the logic or illogic of faith in your ideology is up for interpretation. What you are saying is is that the very necessity of faith is determined by individuals "logical" interpretations within your ideology. This fundamentally is relativism, which is utterly opposed to the truth of Mazdaeanism and is evil as truth and righteousness cannot to be determined by man, and are absolutes. This relativism is dangerous as it can lead to perversions of the faith and to apostasy.

    Now you say that this ideology would not lead to apostasy because you would not dare condemn yourselves to damnation. But this is simplistic, individuals within your ideological cadre are unique with differentiated interpretations of logic. You personally are influenced by the omnipresence of the Church and thus your mind cannot comprehend a life without it, but others quite easily could first veer into heresy born of erroneous theology, and then to apostasy based on introspective logical relativism, to either justify their own immorality, or out of an understandable desire to proclaim what they think is right. Thus what happens when one of your own thinks the roman pantheon religion is right, or that science alone can inform all understanding is a degeneration into perversion and error, and the corruption of society under the auspices of this erroneous ideology.

    Indeed on that point I got an anonymous letter informing me that an unknown individual or group wishes to destroy our society as it stands using logic and your ideology! Already we see it sows the seeds of corruption! This person, a logician, seeks to harm the Church and drag us into the snares of Angra Mainyu using your ideology which is fundamentally relativistic to justify his evil. Already actions in the real world beyond the halls of scholarly debate reveal the falsehood of Tambiens ideology, which unfortunately you share, in that it as a product of its own error propogates other more dangerous corruptions.
     
  18. chgrogers

    chgrogers Prince

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    You here a knock at your door, and you open it to find a note at your doorstep

    Quote:
    Join me in a coup so we can overthrow the government and build a society based on logic.
    -DQ
    If you will support him, or not, just respond to me.

    This is the letter that I received at my door while I was going over some Old religious texts and the Manifesto of Logic a certain passage made me wonder. Did the supporters of Logic actually send the message?

    "As far as possible, do not kill. Can you return life to what you kill? Then be slow to take life. When you kill a person they become a dead husk. You cannot recover their essence, and that is a detriment to civilization. However, do not mistake this as forbidding you to defend yourself. If someone is intent on killing you, you may defend yourself. Nonlethal tactics are recommended, but sometimes you must kill to protect yourself.

    The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own. When you kill another, you remove a valuable asset to civilization. Therefore, you must preserve others as much as is possible.

    He talks peace if it is the only way to live. Peace is the way. Whenever you can, make peace with old enemies and nemeses.

    Do no harm to those that harm you. Offer them peace, then you will have peace. When you harm one that has not harmed you, you create another enemy that you will have to deal with at a later date."

    From past experience coup even one that built on the ideals of nonviolence. Will be bloody.

    Two possibilities stem from this attempt at a coup. It is a fanatic whom does not understand the manifesto or it is a subversive trap that is designed to invoke fear in the people and turn them away from Logic.

    I wish to see the true party claim responsibility for their attempt at treason and step forward so we Know who is trying overthrow the government.
     
  19. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    These occurrences are indeed startling. It is suspicious to me that such a letter would show up at such a pivotal time in this debate, but I can do nothing but accept its truth when coming from such an esteemed source. Perhaps my upbringing in high society has shielded me from individuals with such a skewed sense of morality and thought. Though I admit to seeing the error in my judgement of the malicious, I still believe in the intellectual and theoretical value of the work. Perhaps if a new edition was released, detailing the importance of faith above logic, we can preserve the forward thinking ideals of the paper while preventing potential perversions of faith. This would not even be a true addition to the work, because I believe the idea that faith is logical is already undertone and it will only serve clarify the actual meanings of the text.
     
  20. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Forward thinking, I would like to know what you mean by that term. I hope you are not upholding the error of modernism. As to potential clarifications of the work, the work itself advocates a fundamentally erroneous mode of thought, I will not compromise with ideoological falsehood, or shirk my duty as a mazdaean and sit by and do nothing to oppose such things which undermine the foundations of the Church.
     

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