Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Jun 30, 2011.
OOC: Jehoshua enact the bill of rights or ill break Christos out of Jail
The points you make are, in my eyes, unnecessary. Points 1, 2 & 4 are already guaranteed de jure in the law and constitution, point 3 is already recognised de facto. Point 5 is unenforceable, men are by nature unequal and to treat them as such is impossible, to believe otherwise is either incredibly naive or unrealistically idealistic.
The limitations on judiciary powers are the only thing you suggested that are workable and not already implemented in law, but given the current unrest they would be massively unwise.
I thank the High Priest for his research on the Babylonian ritual, I will take advice from Babylonian scholars on the exact procedures for the ritual.
I'm not sure the sarcasm alert was appropriate for that last line...
(everyone else) (Jehoshua)
ooc: If you do that I'll sign a bill making him the legal father of the coup orphans.
If someone could please show where each of these are protected by the constitution this can be put to rest. You could at least tell me where to find a full copy of the constitution.
Point 5 is easily enforceable. If a government official is racist towards a specific group of people he could be tried and put in jail.
If you are talking about this point:
-Persian Citizens have the right to a fair trial under the minister of law, and are innocent until proven otherwise. Excessive bail shall not be required, excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
I don't see how it is unwise. Were you planning on just throwing them into jail and giving them unpayable bail? If so I fear the regime we live under and it is all the more reason to enact this point.
1) I didnt even had a trial....
2) Please, both gonverment and rebels try to make peace and talk peacefully.
Approximately six pages or so back.
That's only a single aspect of the ramifications of an 'All citizens are equal' clause. In fact I'm not sure that such a clause would make racism illegal. One could argue that it could also be read in such a way to legitimise racism.
I'm assuming your responding to my last point, your missive is quite fractured. Personally I'm not sure what this 'bail' you speak of is and who these hypothetical detainees are supposed to be, but if you are referring to the terrorists and guerrilla fighters then I intend to keep them in detention until brought to trial (which will be within a reasonable timeframe taking into account the relative complexity of the investigation) at which point their guilt or innocence will be ascertained and they will be released or punished as necessary.
Well I meant that if a government official favored one race over another. I do not see how it can be read to legitimize racism, it calls for all races to be treated equally.
Than I am unsure why that point is unwise. If you plan to do what you say than it shouldn't affect the current situation much.
Unfortunately I do not have the judicial power to initiate a bill of rights, that being solely the prerogative of the King and/or the minister of law (whom the King can veto).
Incidentally if you attempt to break Christos out of jail then I will ensure a swift and just punishment considering you'd be going into my jurisdiction (local law). This crime however lacks a set standard or response so I will have to make up the punishment as I go along if such is the case, be assured that in this scenario I would develop a fair and reasonable punishment.
Well almost everyone anyway. Either way despite the plurality who would like to see me spit roasted on an open fire I still appear to be one step ahead. Although of course I have suspicions Cyrus Artaparsi was assassinated, although I lack any evidence that would justify action against the various descendants of the fallen usurpers. Besides it might just be political paranoia
This is the new Constitution:
CONSTITUTIONS OF PERSIA
Are there divisions between powers (local, national governments)? :Yes
Are there separate branches?: No
is religion a part of government? If so, what do they do? What can the leader of the religion do?:
Yes, The High Priest of the Mazdaean religion is ex officio minister of religion with responsibilities in religious matters. The High Priest can judge on matters religious in regards to Mazdaeans, and can request action against non Mazdaeans in matters of grave severity. The Mazdaean Church also receives a tax and is the official state religion of the empire; only this religion can evangelise in Persia or send missionaries abroad.
Who has the power to decide:
What to build in a city: The satrap of the relevant satrapy. King of Kings can veto
What to research: Minister of Technology and Education. King of Kings can veto
What social policy to choose: Domestic Minister. King of Kings can veto
How will the things mentioned above be decided?: decree
Who controls the units? Is there a general for each unit, for each group?: The satraps control the army of his satrapy, the King of Kings controls the Imperial Army and the Royal Guard. The Supreme Commander can act depending on the King of Kings will as subsidiary commander of the Imperial Army, in addition to his other roles of responsibility as minister of matter military
Who has the power to declare war? To order an attack?: A vote incorporating the High Priest, King of Kings, the satraps, the Prime Minister and the Supreme Commander must be made to declare war. 2/3 majority required.
What is the military's hierarchy?: Divided into Imperial army, royal guard and the various satrapial armies under control of respective commanders. [satrapial armies consist of the garrisons of the cities in the satrapy and 1/2 of all units produced in the satrapy thereafter (the other half go to the Imperial army)] Within these various forces the appropriate commander can appoint generals responsible for specific divisions of units. The Supreme Commander is responsible for overall co-ordination of military strategy and integrating these disparate forces in time of war in concert with the King of Kings.
Who has the power to make agreements with foreign leaders?: Foreign minister: King of Kings must ratify.
Who will travel to other civilizations or receive foreign leaders?: Foreign Minister or King of Kings can travel to other civilisation on diplomatic visitations. The King of Kings will receive foreign leaders unless he is unavailable whereupon the foreign minister receives.
Who has the power to make domestic policies (which involve migration, crime, value promotion)?: Satraps on a local level, if not contradictory to national values, domestic minister on a national level. King of Kings has veto.
Who has the power to develop foreign policies?: Foreign Minister, King of King has veto.
What are all the possible positions in government? What power do they have (what do they do?)
King of Kings: Ruler of the Persian Civilisation, has veto over national policy in all areas and the city production ordered by Satraps, controls Royal Guard. personal ruler (Satrap) of the Satrapy of Persepolis. He can introduce laws for discussion of his own volition in matter secular and implement them of his own volition. He can take absolute control of Persia in times of emergency requiring a Cabinet vote which with a simple majority declares a national emergency. (anyone can call the referendum to end a state of emergency and the King has no power to prevent it) The salary of the King of Kings would be 12 gold in addition to his personal land earnings. Succession to the throne will be via elective monarchy. He cannot hold a position in a religious hierarchy and he cannot hold a ministerial position in concurrence with this office. To elect a new King of Kings the senior ministers, the Prime Minister, the late Kings’ appointed representative and the Satraps will enter into a closed discussion, before voting for a new King of Kings. A simple majority is required and if a vote fails a new round of discussions is undertaken before it is repeated. If there is a tie the vote is repeated between the tied candidates. The Minister of the People and Minister of Religion are permitted to attend the council but may not vote.
Satraps: Ruler of a satrapy (group of 3 – 5 cities and their land), rule their satrapies by whatever local laws they establish. Have control of local constructions, satrapial armies land distribution and law. Succession will be hereditary within the reigning house of a satrapy using male-preference primogeniture (if no male of the reigning house is available then eldest female can take throne, if the satrap has no heir one is elected as if the satrapy had just been created). Salary of a Satrap is 7. A satrap in a newly founded satrapy is via election consisting of the King of Kings and the satraps. An individual satrap can be deposed by the King of Kings if found guilty of treasonous acts against the empire, with his heir then taking the throne. No single individual (character) can hold dual satrapies, if a satrap is elected King of Kings his satrapy will immediately pass to his heir. The satrap may delegate power over a city to a Governor.
Minister: Responsible for a specific ministry. They have absolute authority in their area except they can be vetoed by the King of Kings. Salary of a Minister in his office of minister is 5. A minister can appoint advisors to aid him and their salary will be 3 as they retain the rank of Lord. A minister can be deposed by the King of Kings at his will, except the Minister of Religion as that position is automatically filled by the Leader of the Mazdaean Church who cannot be deposed except by means described later in this document and the Prime Minister, who is elected by the lords, Ministers and satraps of the Empire for life. The other ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister. The King of Kings has the authority to create new junior ministries at his wish. Ministries are divided into senior and junior ministries with the entire cabinet of ministers being chaired by a Prime Minister who has special status. The description of various ministries is below. A junior ministry may be elevated to a senior ministry by majority vote of the King, Prime Minister and senior ministers. No individual may hold multiple senior ministries.
The Prime Minister: Has authority over the cabinet and with developing in concert with the King of Kings the grand, coherent holistic policy and objectives of the Empire. He appoints other ministers (except religion) and can call a cabinet vote (vote of all the ministers) to initiate a national emergency state. He is entitled to a special income of 7g compared to the ordinary ministerial income of 5. He cannot hold any other ministerial position.
The senior ministries are:
Ministry of Technology and Education: The Education Minister is responsible for managing our research projects and the empires educational development
Ministry of War: The Supreme Commander is responsible for co-ordinating the military forces, and taking tactical command during wartime. Also responsible for managing military affairs of the nation and developing grand strategy in acknowledgement of foreign military might
Ministry of Domestic Affairs: The Domestic Minister is responsible for the internal stability of the state. He is charged with investigating various social problems and developing solutions. He also is responsible for social policies
Ministry of Foreign Affairs: The Foreign Minister is responsible for all foreign policy, also serves as chief diplomat in dealing with foreign nations. Ambassadors come under his authority in this ministry and are responsible for monitoring foreign states, including through espionage and reporting back to the minister.
Ministry of Law: The Minister of Law is responsible for executing laws and judging crimes with the addition of two jurors who are appointed directly by the King of Kings.
Junior ministries are:
Ministry of Minorities: The Minister of Minorities is responsible for ensuring the voice of minority ethnic groups is heard. He is also responsible for dialogue with minority leaders and formulating specific policy in regards to minorities.
Ministry of the People; The Minister of the People is elected for life in a universal vote, he is charged with ensuring the popular voice is expressed in government
Ministry of Religion: The Religious Minister is responsible for religious matters and religious law. He is the prime interlocutor between the government and the state Church.
Lord: This title passes onto lesser officials and their eldest sons upon their fathers deaths (unless those sons have a higher rank). The Lord has income of 3). This position consists of the holders of various subordinate offices to the various ministries/satraps which are described below. The King of Kings can implement new Lordly offices and the superior position of a lordly position can dismiss a lord from service in that position at will. However even if dismissed from service in a lordly office a person and his heirs retain the title (and pay) of a lord.
Ambassador: under the authority of the foreign minister, responsibilities described in the foreign ministry section (cannot be at the same time a Satrap or a Minister)
Advisor: Can be appointed by a minister as an aid and helper and responsible for advising the minister in his duties in addition to filling any specific duties he is charged with by that minister. (cannot be a minister at the same time)
General: appointed leader of a division of soldiers by the commander of a respective army.
Governor: Deputy of Satrap, responsible for managing the local matters of an individual city of the Satrapy. Only two permitted per satrapy (. Can grant land for their city in lieu of the satrap, they cannot grant land to themselves or to anyone in their family (the persons player characters).
In the event the King of Kings is unable to attend to his duties or an Electoral Council is unable to decide upon a new King of Kings for an extended period of time a regent will be appointed based on their position and length of unbroken service. In the event multiple individuals have the same length of service in any given group they are to be separated by age. The order of precedence based on position is as follows:
1. Prime Minister
2. Senior Ministers
The regency has the same eligibility criteria as the King of Kings. The Regent exercises the powers of the King of Kings but may not introduce a new law or veto the decision of a minister. He may order a minister or satrap dismissed but requires unanimous consent from the cabinet (other than the minister to be dismissed).
How will politicians be chosen to each position? (remember, there can now be more politicians then the number of citizens in-game):
Via appointment to a position. Lordly rank also passes through primogeniture (in the same manner as Satrap positions are inherited) to the legitimate heir of a Lord.
How will land be distributed and administer?
All land once owned by a politician is inheritable according to his will and owned by that politicians’ heir of the land according to that will in perpetuity. This remains so unless they decide to sell the land to another House or individual. Land not owned by a citizen or politician is property of the relevant satrapy (the income does not go to the satrap) and can be sold by the relevant satrap to politicians and citizens. Politicians who die without any descendants have their land automatically put on the market for sale unless they specify a recipient in their will. Satraps, the King of Kings and governors cannot grant land to themselves.
Are there taxes? What are they and to who?
Taxes are income tax as a percentage of a persons income. They are
Security Tax: 10% goes to paying security forces, excess goes into security coffer for national usage (cannot be used for personal use) under the control of the King of Kings.
Religious Tax: 5% - 2% is reserved for the church of Mazda and the rest divided among recognised religions according to the number of places of worship recognised by the state. In an emergency these revenues will be diverted to the emergency fund.
Local Taxes: Up to 5% at the discretion of the satrap.
The King of Kings and High Priest are exempt from taxes.
Law and Justice
Who has the power to make laws?: Minister of Law or King of Kings. King can veto
Who has the power to reform laws?: Minister of Law of King of Kings. King can veto, changes to constitution (this document) require referendum.
How are laws made?:
Who can punish criminals? How? :
Minister of Law and/or King of Kings on national matters, on merely local concerns Satraps can judge and punish. Judgement on religious matters is by the Minister of Religion in regards to Mazdaeans ordinarily. Non-Mazdaeans are judged by ordinary means except in the case of High Sacrilege against Mazdaeanism whereupon the Minister of Religion can judge. High Priest is sacrosanct and is immune from prosecution except in the case of treason against the Empire, in this case the King of Kings can execute him and the Church can elect a new leader. The King of Kings is sacrosanct and immune from prosecution excepting a deposition due to criminal acts, applicable by cabinet vote (initiating the selection of new King of Kings). Prime Minister is immune from prosecution except at the approval of the King of Kings.
Who is enforcing the laws?: Minister of Law on a national level, satraps locally, King of Kings extraordinarily.
Constitution also has pre-eminence over any previous law.
Grand Reconcilliation and Security Bill
Seperation of Church and State
The Church of Ahura Mazda is the official religion of the Persian Empire and as such is due the respect of Persians of all faiths. Church law applies only to adherents of the Mazdaean faith but the High Priest may petition the King of Kings to bring charges against non-Mazdaeans in cases of extreme sacrilege.
The Ministry of Religion is to be reduced to a junior ministry. The Minister of Religion will be granted non-voting observer status in the Electoral Council and will not be eligible to be made regent.
The Religious Tax is to be reduced to 5%. 2% is reserved for the church of Mazda and the rest divided among recognised religions according to the number of places of worship recognised by the state. In an emergency these revenues will be diverted to the emergency fund.
The power to recognise religions is stripped from the Minister of Religion and vested in the King of Kings.
The King of Kings may not serve in the hierarchy of any religion, if a member of such a hierarchy is elected they must resign their ecumenical appointment before investiture.
Security of the Empire
The raising and maintenance of security and military forces is to be carried out by the King of Kings and the Satraps only. Control of all security and military forces currently maintained by citizens is to immediately be passed to the relevant authority.
The punishment for breaching this law is a fine equal to three times the forces maintenance and ten turns imprisonment if security forces are being maintained or confiscation of all financial assets and lifetime imprisonment in the case of military forces.
To pay for the additional public security forces the security tax is to be increased to 10%.
All prominent citizens are to swear an oath of loyalty to the King in the name of the god they worship. This shall be required immediately after this law comes into effect, on the election of a new King and when a citizen who wishes to enter public service comes of age or announces their intention.
Failure to swear the oath will suppress all noble rights held by that person and bar them from public service until the oath is taken. Reneging on the oath is punishable by death.
The foreign affairs tax is abolished. Foreign affairs will be funded from the security budget when required.
Proposal on the Distribution of Powers
1. No individual may hold more than one senior ministerial position
2. No individual may be satrap of more than one city
3. Any individual holding multiple government positions will receive full salary for the most senior position in the regency list and half salary for all others
4. Any individual holding multiple government positions may only cast one vote on any issue they are entitled to vote on, regardless of the amount of positions that give that right
5. A government official may not appoint a member of his house as an advisor to his ministry/city
6. An advisor to a ministry or city is obliged to resign their position if a member of their house is appointed as minister/satrap of the relevant ministry/city
7. Any individual holding a government position above the level of advisor may not be appointed as an advisor, if an advisor is appointed to a more senior position they are obliged to resign any advisory position
Quarter Session Event
Persepolis has seen an improvement in the city. With the people calming down, and money being donated from the Artaparsi family, Persepolis is being rebuilt.
However, remnants of a violent past are still visible. Persepolis woke one morning to see two dead bodies tied to a pole in front of the Great Library. Reports say these men were investigators. The criminals were not caught.
However, death is not the only news, for Casper Kaysar was returned to his home without severe injuries. He was blindfolded the entire time, so it is improbable that he can give any information of what he had been through. Why the terrorists released him for nothing in return is unknown.
I am glad Casper has been released unharmed, although the perpetrators are building up even more charges for themselves with these murders.
If Casper can provide any information on his captors, voices perhaps, it would be of considerable use in the investigation.
One minute, the rebels are going to have trial ???? I didnt killed anyone and i didnt had trial. That means that you are so afraid that the people will learn the truth that you put me into jail without even letting me have a trial.
You self confessed to heresy and you publicly proselytised in advocacy for an unrecognised religion, there was no need for a trial considering this, since your guilt was thus pre-determined in regards to these crimes since you publcly pronounced them in act.
The guerilla and terrorist insurgents on the other hand do not have an absolute determinacy of guilt in certain regards. For example they were caught in subversive acts but we cannot know without a trial and investigation whether they were members of a group, or simply your run of the mill opportunistic criminal. Thus a trial is neccessary to determine the precise level of guilt they posess and the subsequent punishment due.
So teaching the people the truth is a crime?
Yes teaching any truth other than approved by the Mazaean Religion is a crime. Other than that I don't know more reasoning behind it, you would have to ask a priest.
Not quite correct.
Religions which have petitioned the King of Kings and gained the status of recognised religion (Such as Annunakism and Ashurism) are permitted to freely worship within the Persian Empire and indeed they recieve a portion of the religious tax for their organisations. However naturally out of respect for the fact that the Mazdaean religion is our state religion these recognised religions are forbidden from actively proselytising non-members of their faiths.
heresies are forbidden from publicly practicing or proselytising due to the fact they corrupt and dissent from the revealed Mazdaean religion which is the state religion.
Non-recognised religions are forbidden simply because they require Kingly permission first and to engage publicly without it is to act treasonously against the King of Kings. Furthermore other religions which are not already recognised require analysis to determine the compatibility of their rites and beliefs with Persian society.
The Mazaean Religion is false. Kiranism teaches the truth without getting any money from the people or having hight priest becoming sastraps.
Kiranism is a destructive and subversive force that is gravely contradictory to the values of persian society. It is offensive to the persian people and its known adherents past and present (presently only one) consistently act in manners contrarily to persian law and did not even go through the motion of requesting permission before engaging in public acts (thus prooving their subversiveness).
This cult is dangerous and gravely immoral, its theology is a deliberately warped corruption of the truth and it can nowhere be approved. I therefore in the name of the most high Lord declare this cult anathema.
You cannot destroy the truth!! I may die but then other will come and after them more will come.
Separate names with a comma.