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[R&F] Governor's breaking my immersion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by nzcamel, May 18, 2018.

  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Keep in mind that no matter how they spun governors as an addition to the game; the main reason they were added to the game was to give players who like a small empire a leg up against players who don't mind having an empire proper. They're to make tall possible. And while I think there may have been better ways of doing it, I certainly prefer governors to anything that punishes wide (global happiness) rather than finding a way to boost tall.

    So the whole specialising your cities thing - as a few of you have said, that can happen; but it's circumstantial. It has added a layer of micromanagement that is a bit annoying (i.e. trying to space out when cities construct builders so Liang can be in said city at completion); but meh...

    As the OP, I personally do not mind that this thread discusses the practical side of governors as well as their aesthetics...I think their practicality is both close enough to the topic, and almost impossible to not head there at all; that I am fine with both being in this thread. Obviously mods may feel differently.

    I agree re the Clarity. Like if you swapped out their little faces in the City bars (though dammit those city bars are useless! It's close to impossible to just click on the city bar itself if there's any unit in the city! Gah :wallbash: ) for the generic Great people pics in the OP, that wouldn't work. So I think another generic symbol is better, as they aren't distinct enough at that small size.

    I'd have a $ for the Financier; a sword for the Castellan; a sealed scroll for the Diplomat; etc...
     
  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    @nzcamel " I certainly prefer governors to anything that punishes wide (global happiness) rather than finding a way to boost tall. " Agreed wholeheartedly.
     
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  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    It’s not a rhetorical question, I was genuinely asking.

    I don’t use Governors to specialise cities, and I wonder if I should more. The top tier promotions do seem directed at specialising, and at sort of reintroducing certain metas. eg Magnus allows for Facotry Bonus Stacking again, and Reyna encourages Harbour and Commercial Hub stacking.

    I really think the Governor system is pretty solid in terms of gameplay - and personally I don’t think I’ve explored it enough. But I do think the presentation is not great.
     
  4. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well the two who's base benefit is a multiplier on what your city already produces (the Cardinal and the Educator) I suspect are certainly used in that fashion. It could be argued that the Financier is similar; but I suspect less people will get her for her base ability alone.
     
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  5. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I think Governors would be a bit better at specialising if you could get some of them more than once.

    That might seem counterintuitive, but because you can only buy each Governor once you end up with a bunch of Governors you don’t really want. It sort of “dilutes” the feel of the one you do want.

    In the early game, you also move your Governors around more, so for a while you don’t really get the feeling of specialising a particular city.

    Separately, having only one Victor or one Amani is very annoying, and seems a little daft. Seriously, my Empire has only ever produced one Diplomat (although, granted, she is an immortal diplomat who can travel any distance in only 5 turns)?

    The Governors’ initial powers and promotions might need a bit of a rework, but I hardly think having two Reynas or two Amanis would be game breaking. Maybe there would be a limit of max 3 per type. You’d also need a few more faces to make it work!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  6. juanpavo

    juanpavo Warlord

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    They could have easily achieved this by using unique different color backgrounds in the portraits, without using gross caricatures. For example, Magnus could be a normal face on a blue background, Liang a normal face on a green backgound, etc. I'm sure there are other design style choices that could also achieve the same.
     
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  7. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Similarly, you don't need a picture at all. You could have the current Victor represented by crossed swords on a red background, the current Reyna as gold coins on a yellow background, etc. They'd still give you the gist of what the governor does and who the governor is, while also being easily distinguished on the city banner.
     
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  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Time to hack Ugandan Knuckles to be all of the governors, complete with sound effects and showing you the way to play. That'll help "immersion".
     
  9. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Yeah, that's my preference.

    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  10. Vandlys

    Vandlys King

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    You don't mention Teddy wearing a modern suit in ancient times, or Wilhelmina, or Oda's sword, etc. Are they too immersion breaking to you?
     
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  11. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I think Governors are a sign of how it's becoming increasingly difficult to add good stuff to the game. I'm not exactly against the Governors, but I don't feel they're really needed, either. Kinda gimmicky.
     
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  12. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I think they wanted to bring back the social policy trees, so that you were making more permanent decisions about the character of your civilization.
     
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  13. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    And they do work kind of well as a form of mobile loyalty. And as mentioned, there's a certain logic to "city specialization" with them as well. If you think of them as a sort of "mobile national wonder" like we had in previous games, they make some sense, although I do think in most cases they're a little under-whelming in terms of their effects.
     
  14. Sylfea

    Sylfea Chieftain

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    I'm fine with them being not too powerful - more like tweaks than game changers - I just wish (a) there were more of them so you couldn't pick all of them every single game and (b) that you could rename them. Seriously, 9 Amani's bumping around the map by the classical age, so boring.
     
  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    They don't break my immersion at all. Do they break yours?
     
  16. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    For gameplay purposes, it's easier to tell what governor a rival is using if it looks the same as the one that is available to me. If governors were real historical figures it would confuse them with great people and actual leaders or spies. I'm not sure what else there is to draw on other making some playful fictious types. It is historical fiction at least.
     
  17. Vandlys

    Vandlys King

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    Not really :) Although I would think it cool if leader images changed through the ages, with a non-Eurocentric look for appropriate civs.
    I just wondered, because Magnus' hat in ancient times is not any less silly than Oda's sword before iron working, Teddy's suit, Wilhelmina's umbrella, etc. I'm curious why the one feels immersion breaking, and the other does not.
     
  18. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I see. I disagree with you re: leader garb though. It's an established fiction that Civ leaders come from all sorts of time periods and lead their civ (that's the nature of the what-if scenario that each Civ game brings). Period-restricted garb is appropriate for leaders like Trajan or Roosevelt who represent their nation's image in a way tied to a specific timeline (namely ancient Roman glory and imperialist American dominance). Re: Magnus being immersion-breaking, let me give you a parallel in Civ: we don't have the ability to make tanks in 3000 BC. Magnus, unlike the historical leaders in cartoonish form in Civ VI, is a fictitious cartoon character wearing an industrialist's garb who can be appointed in 3000 BC. Just as we can't built the Eiffel Tower in 3000 BC, so we should not be able to appoint an industrialist governor at that time.

    They could just use icons for the AI governors (maybe with coupled with customizable cartoon characters for the player's own). Re: real historical figures, they could use names native to the culture at least (like with spies currently). The AI governors don't need to be named, but their type could be specified (I.e. Diplomat Governor).
     
  19. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I don't understand what being fictitious has to do with barring from ancient starts. It's the same as disallowing Teddy Roosevelt on earlier than Industrial and severely limits the player in governor choices. Buildings like the Eiffel Tower follow different rules because they represent a level of civilization while leaders and by extension governors represent a style of leadership. Customizable portraits for players' governors would not work in multiplayer because it's the same problem of not being able to identify a rival governor on sight. When folks say they want governors "like spies" or "like great people" they are pointing to the problem that governors will simply blend into those entities if they have the same naming scheme or icon. Here is where gameplay trumps immersion because I need to know that a governor is a projection of a leader's power, therefore they will have similar portraits and exist as long as that leader exists, even at 3000 BC. But to make them customizable is to multiply the combinations of governors and leaders needlessly.
     
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  20. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    "Fictitious" matters because the central conceit of Civ is a "what if" scenario between history's great leaders. The relatedness inmersiveness is lost when fictitious cartoon characters who can clone endlessly appear in the game (Magnus) at an inappropriate time (ancient age).

    The Eiffel Tower is as much a marker of its time (Industrial Age) as Roosevelt is of America (leadership style). What is Magnus other than an anachronistic anchor to an improper Governor system?

    Customizable portraits would work in multiplayer so long as the Governor type was clearly signified when you moused over them (or the Governor icons could come in different shapes, like a star for the defensive Governor).

    The governors are not a projection of the Civ leader's power. For that to be the case they would have to be more unique in the way a Civ leader or a Civ's bonuses are (I.e. Let's suppose only Egypt gets access to the Imhotep Builder Governor, who has a different Governor tree but otherwise similar bonuses to Liang). Governors are currently less projections of a leader's power and more representative of an "upgradable bonus" gameplay style. For governors to actually be a projection of a "leader's power" governments would have to become more than just a collection of random bonuses in Civ.

    As another thread in this forum discusses, Civ VI is full of government but not governance. Civ IV has better governance and difficult domestic decisions and didn't even have "governors" in the way Civ VI does.
     
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