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Goz7 - The Squeeze Rematch

gozpel

Couch-potato (fortified)
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
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Location
Australia
We will give this great idea another go and continue with the previous Civ Babylon. In the last game we got seriously beaten by Sumeria and the new map will be on standard pangaea, so we don't get stuck with one monster-civ.

We can only build cities INSIDE our borders. This will be a cultural game of gaining 100K before the AI launches its ship.

Players: I will start this game when everone said hello and I did the Lee thing and made a random roster. (Well, my number was lower than most, but I want to start it.) :)

gozpel
Greebley
Sir Bugsy
LKendter
Bedhead
Kaiser Berger

Before we start, please give us your suggestions and norms that we should follow, so everyone get it right and don't mess up stuff. A kind of ruleset for this game.

Like what Lee said after I asked:

gozpel: meanwhile we should try to figure out some stuff, like temples has to be built ASAP to expand borders. Then do we sell them right away to save gold?

Lee: NO - we still need the culture and happy help. However, don't rush to libraries and other culture right away. You need to squeeze in some cities with barracks and military. Lack of military always causes trouble in culture variants.

A valid point! And if you have any more ideas that might been buggering you, speak out now, so we don't have to stall the game in the middle and figure stuff out.

Now, report for duty. I post a screenie later today.
 
No reason to rest while you're asleep :)

Map: Standard pangaea 70%, normal, temperate, 4 billion year land, 7 random civs.

Difficulty Chieftain :lol:

Erh, no after some thoughts about the team: Deity. (I accidently started the first one as chieftain and got a cow and a wheat on river.)

All normal victory conditions allowed.
Cultural conversions ON, SGL's OFF.
AI Aggression Normal.
No barbs.

This is what we got, I'm not sure what to do here really, but founding on a BG is not an option. Floodplains to the south-west and as it looks coast to the east.

Do we want to go inland and get extra food or immediately hop on to the wine?
 
Normally I would go to the wines, (...)
Settling ontop of wines is usually not that smart, since unlike other luxes it is a food resource.. the extra food would be lost then.
 
Normally I would go to the wines, but in this game you really want to go inland so you could settle in all directions. Remember you cannot settle on the water.
I agree to with Microbe. Start the capitol on the ocean waste 1/2 of your potential expansion area. We can get the wines quick enough if the settler goes inbound.

With trying for 100K on deity we HAVE to fight - period. There is no way to get enough cities with culture with the cities being 6 and less for the most part. We must mix military with culture.

Another point on keeping the temples from earlier - if we sold them we waste the 1000 year doubling. Let's keep the most bang for the buck.
 
My tired server didn't let me upload this yesterday, but here we go.

Settler moves SW and Babylon is founded 3950bc, start a warrior.

When we plant the town, a cow shows up 2 N. Good for a second city.

Research Pottery at max.

3700bc - Babylon warrior, start another. Bubba goes W.

3600bc - We meet a spanish warrior, they doesn't want to trade Alphabet for BW.

3450bc - Babylon warrior -> settler.

Spain knows BW.

3350bc - Bubba find the spanish borders SW.

3200bc - We learn Pottery -> Alphabet at min.

3000bc - Spain knows WC too now.

2950bc - Babylon settler -> worker. Send the settler to the cow.

Bubba successfully cut through spanish territory, with help of Izzy's boot.

2850bc - Nineveh founded -> warrior.

Izzy learns Masonry and Pottery.

2750bc - Babylon worker -> granary.

2710bc - We meet Maya, they know the same techs as Spain.

2630bc - Nineveh warrior -> temple. New warrior N to scout, climbs a mountain and find lots of jungle and some spices.

2550bc - I don't know if I should've researched something on max, techs are expensive, and Spain learnt the Wheel, they are in a hurry. Hopefully we meet some more civs soon.

Roster:

gozpel -> Just played
Greebley -> UP
Sir Bugsy -> Lurking
LKendter
Bedhead
Kaiser Berger

goz7_2550bc.jpg
 
I don't know if I should've researched something on max, techs are expensive,
I am going full research all the time if I can get under 50 turns. I am getting sick of demands and I would rather spend the money on slow research then as a "gift" for another civ.

Looking at the picture why is there a worker next to the wines hill? That looks like a city site to me. If not, you may want to post a dot-map.
 
I chopped that spot as it definitley looks like a city spot and I don't like to waste forests if I can help it. When I found a BG I started a road and revised my imaginary dots. Border expansions will happen in 30 or so turns and then we can use the desert tile SE instead. If we swap Babylon to temple now we can push the borders even quicker.

We have time to decide where to put the coastal city, pushing inland will be better for now. And when Nineveh got its temple, we will have spices.
 
Some imaginary dots after border expansions:
 

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I agree with Lee. The spot the worker is on will grab the whale and can make a nice spot when we run out of other spots.
 
Preturn: I can get Alphabet down to 17 turns with Max science. I do this rather than giving cash to the AI or waiting 35 turns for it.

Some Analysis (In part to answer your question about whether Max or Min on Alphabet, Gozpel, in part because I am not sure of the answer):

I took Masonry (known by both AI):
1) Self Research costs: 9*16=144 science.
2)Cost to buy is 94+ 6 gpt = 214 gold (probably near 200 gold if just gold is used).
a) Add in the fact that giving cash to the Mayans or Spanish will research techs faster putting you more behind.
3) Buying exclusive techs is too costly and even 2-fers cost more
a) We can't even afford the wheel with all our gold and gpt, so we can't do a 2-fer anyway (270 gold (i.e. 110+ 8 gpt) is doubtful).
b) Comparing the science cost vs the cost for a 2-fer:
i) I think an exclusive tech costs aproximately twice as much to buy as you will get when you sell it back to an AI. (from the tech formula).
ii) We could research the wheel in 17 turns so that is 9*17= 153 gold. To get the Wheel and Masonry would cost 297 science.
iii) Since the tech was doubtful at 270. At a guess, that would mean it is at least 300 gold to buy.
iv) It is then worth 150 to trade for masonry for which the cost is 200. That means we have spent at least 350.
- This could be low since the wheel is likely to be more than 300 gold).
v) So even a 2-fer costs more than researching both techs individually.
vi) It is also possible that the AI know more civs making the deal worse for you.

Conclusion: As best as I can determine, if you know only 2 or less AI's at deity, it is better to self research than to save up your cash.

The exceptions I can think of would be:
1) When you have a tech that they don't, then you can add gold or gpt you can full value for your tech when trading purposes by trading for another tech.
2) If you know 2 civs that don't know each other then a 2-fer is beneficial (you get full value for the trade back).
a) Note that by the time you can afford an exlusive tech the civs are likely to know each other if they start on the same land mass.
b) It will also fail to work if the 2nd AI knows another civ that has the exclusive tech.
c) There is no way to know this until you try to trade back and notice you can't get full value.
d) Thus this is really for archipeligo maps. It can work on other maps, but is much more unlikely to work out right.
3) If you need a tech right away, obviously buying it is faster than researching it assuming you have sufficient gpt.
a) In this case you need to be willing to pay a higher cost for immediate results.

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This analysis only applies to the early game. For some reason, it seems that later in the game the cost in gold and in science is more even. I am unsure when that occurs though and if it is a result of the it being the later game, or the fact that you know more AI.

Enough of that - on to the game:

Preturn: Everything looks good.

2510 BC: Think about whether rushing the temple in Nineveh is worthwhile. I decide no, since the earlier expansion doesn't mean a settler will be around to take advantage of it. I will build the temple followed by a settler to grab the Spice.
The western warrior finds the borders of the Mayan lands.
2310 BC: Colossus completed by the Dutch.
2270 BC: Connect wines.
2150 BC: Messed up Nineveh's growth. It will take 6 turns instead of 5.

Notes:
I wasn't positive the Granary before a Temple was best, but I kept it on the Granary. We will want to build a temple next I suspect to get the border expansion sooner. Then we can start a settler. One advantage with this is that we have more shields in the capitol as we are not size 1, We can work the flood plains and have some shields as well. Actually, it may even be worthwhile to build a worker (and warrior) after the temple. That way we can irrigate the flood plain and get 4, 3, 3 food rather than 3, 3, 2, 2 for 3 turn growth. The settler would otherwise be before the border expansion and I would like to put our cities outside the lands worked by the capitol (excepting Nineveh of course).

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Another Aside:
An interesting way to start this game would be to build the temple the very first and then the granary. We then might get a border expansion before our second city and be able to place it outside the Capitol's radius. Not sure if this is better as it delays the second city.

Alphabet in 4 (so 14 turns total to research).

[Edit: Arrgh! I am an idiot tonight. That stupid worker is building a mine on the bonus grassland again after we decided it was a city site. That makes two dumb errors in 10 turns. I think I will put off playing the second game I am up in. I am in poor form tonight. Apologies.
 
Nice analysis Greebley and I will take that to heart and hopefully remember that next time. It's true that the AI will pinch any gold we have, but I always was confused when I couldn't trade for Alphabet early enough and then see the AI running away :)

Max research and little in the kitty.

About the temple, I too was thinking of building it early, but I'm just too much of a breeder and want as many cities out as possible as fast as possible. Not always the best tactics, because even if I end up with 22 towns at 1000bc, they are usually very small and pretty useless for quite some time.

I'm slow to change, but getting there :)

I think we have something like 20-21 turns before border-expansion now and a quick temple would cut that dramatically.

(Note: My dots was just an idea and doesn't have to be followed, so if someone has a better idea, speak up) :)
 
I would move the town SW of the capitol a square SE so its on the river. If we build the town SE of the wines, then I would replace the two towns on the SE border with a single town between the two towns.

One reason I called the temple idea "interesting" rather than "good" is that growth is probably better. Also delaying your second town means you don't get the next border expansion as soon. I am guessing that the fast second town is the better plan.
 
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