GP Farms in BtS

[Zhankfor]

So the way I see it, BtS has introduced one aspect that may or may not drastically change the dynamic of the GP farm: the National Park. In theory, it can can give a city 19 free specialists if every square in its radius is forested (which is obviously extremely unlikely and bound to have a severe early production penalty especially on higher difficulties, due to the inability to chop rush those first few settlers and workers), and it can all but eliminate health as a hindrance to growth. In Warlords, I stuck to the standard farm-mine-and-later-windmill strategy for my GP farms, which gave them good production to get some wonders up and enough food to usually get them up to low to mid thirties (with biology.) I'd also build National Epic (obviously) and Globe Theatre to eliminate unhappiness as a hindrance to growth. National Epic continues to be a no-brainer for the GP Farm I'm sure, but is it beneficial to leave forests and exchange Globe Theatre for the National Park later in the game? Build Preserves in all the forests and that a lot of happiness that, coupled with the usual paths to happiness, can probably all but eliminate it as a hindrance as well. And if you're going for Environmentalism, it can give a pretty huge bonus to commerce as well (especially for Financial leaders: +3 for every forest, +4 next to a river!)

What we need is someone much smarter and more diligent than me to do an actual analysis... but for now we can discuss. Thoughts?

Oh, and of course if we conclude that the National Park is NOT worth the early production penalty and lack of food, and probably some other disadvantages I haven't thought of, then we need to figure out the best use for it!

 

[Arwon]

You can also throw it into a mid-game jungle city. I've got a game in which a city I pinched from Babylon in the middle ages has 17 free specialists....

 

[Bast]

I'm getting like 5 free specialists in my capital from the National Park + 1 free from the Statue of Liberty and I'm regularly pumping out GP even though I'm not philosophical.

 

[Spearthrower]

It's a nice wonder, but in my games, it will rarely be in my capital.

I personally like to use it in the more marginal terrain of the tundra - with a food source or two, you can still get a high powered city from crappy land.

 

[Soneji]

I wish I knew how to make a GP city properly, I always seem to go half way with it, or it doesn't work.

When you lot say free specialist, are you using these all for artists?

 

[DrJambo]

The National Park is great if you can hold off that long until it arrives. Really has to be combined with the National Epic.

 

[Soneji]

Right so Nat Epic, with Nat Park.. then what?

 

[DrJambo]

Well, you need a ton of food to support the specialists as each specialist is a city pop not working a square. Ideally this means a starting location with more than one of the seafood, cows, grain, rice and sheep resources within the city radius. If you don't have the required buildings to enable specialists, then you need to run Caste System.

Edit: build farms instead of cottages. Flood plains are probably the ideal terrain for this, and the National Park will also remove the 'unhealthy' penalties of flood plains.

 

[Soneji]

Thanks DR, I'll give it a better bash these evening!

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

To earlier poster: Allot of food + Allot of health + Allot of happiness = GP farm. The globe theatre and national epic being obvious expediters.

In my games, these aren't fully opperational (reliably pumping out a GP every 20 turns or so) until around size 15+

I have a game now in BtS with my Roman Capital and many wonders, where I have generated 2 great Spies, 4 Great Prophets, and 1 Great Engineer by 1100 AD. I also generated a Great Merchant and a Great Scientist in other cities. Rome is size 15, and I'm in the late middle ages, almost pre-industrial on Monarch setting, and fighting an ugly war with India, and nearing my economic limit in terms of expansion based on the three super cities that I had before I started the campaign nearly 400 years ago, lol.

Obviously, I play for fun and not for speed, so you could argue that it might have been possible to a) already have generated a few more GPs or b) have been further along in the tech tree.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that Rome, at size 15 on grassland river and hills with wine, ivory, and copper, a cow, and rice (I added one source of wine and ivory) can do the above without a national epic in it, as I was desperate to get a GP scientist elsewhere.

I think GP farms are easier and more plentiful than they were in Warlords. Happiness seams easier to manage, so cities are more limited by food sources than happiness, especially if you have the Charismatic trait. Rome also has three religions in it, with a temple for each religion, and I'm under the Representative civic, thanks to the Great Pyramid.

 

[Virulent]

Yeah when I was playing as the Khmer I had NE + NP in my GP farm and it worked out great. I only had 3 forest squares in my fat cross (I had more but I needed to chop them early on) but even then that meant 3 free specialists.

I was cranking out GPs like there was no tomorrow, especially when I was in a Mausoleum extended Golden Age.

 

[Chrispy]

I haven't had a chance to use the combination yet. I agree it looks great, but it comes so late that you often have used the National Epic city for something else (I usually combine it with Oxford, especially if I build the GL there.) This combination seems ideal for that tundra city surrounded by seafood.

The combinations I have used for National Park so far:
Ironworks + National Park: stop worrying about the health cap and keep boosting your hammers with factories; coal plants; etc. Throw in a recycling plant later and you're all set.
Globe + National Park: This would be for a record-setting city size, which is only useful if you're going for diplomatic victory. Fun, but not as useful.

 

[Virulent]

Ironworks + National Park: stop worrying about the health cap and keep boosting your hammers with factories; coal plants; etc. Throw in a recycling plant later and you're all set.

Keep in mind a NP removes access to Coal so you would need another way to power you factory as a coal plant wouldn't work. Also there is no need to build recycling plants or any other health buildings in a city with an NP.

Since you are obviously going to build the Ironworks in your best production city and any forest squares in your best production city are either going to have a lumber mill or be chopped down, you would be missing out on the free specialists per forest preserve that an NP provides.

NP + Ironworks seems like a waste to me.

 

[Chrispy]

That is a problem, although I don't think I had Coal that game. I did notice that the National Park took a chunk out of my Mining, Inc. production in my other game by eliminating 4 Coal, though.

I'm still searching for the city site that will allow me to use the National Park + NE to the best of its ability. I'm still waiting for an opportunity to see how well the Forest Preserve does in expanding forests as well.

 

[magicalsushi]

Well, you need a ton of food to support the specialists as each specialist is a city pop not working a square. Ideally this means a starting location with more than one of the seafood, cows, grain, rice and sheep resources within the city radius.

I thought the idea of the wonder was that the specialists were 'free', and didn't need population or food? I've not used it yet, so I could be wrong, but that was my understanding of it. 19 specialists sounds like a lot to me. It wouldn't be too devestating that there wouldn't be much food left to feed real specialists.

 

[largedarryl]

I've found that this city sometimes is put in place kinda late, but none the less would make for a good GP farm if you are forced to put a city up in the tundra.

I had a nice city placed up in the middle of no where (next to copper and later oil, but no food resources). It wasn't even next to any fresh water, so I couldn't build any farms. This city reached a max size of 2(maybe 3), basically it was pointless to have there, but with the National Park allowed me to have 11 free specialists. I don't recall exactly, but for a city that had nothing, I was able to produce more than 50 hammers a turn.

 

[Common Sensei]

Cereal Mills/Sid's Sushi also have a pretty big impact on GP farms, depending on how many food resources you have.

The biggest impact I've seen was one game where the office was giving +14.

I was playing a Philosophical leader that game and I had produced so many Great People, that the threshold for the next one by the end was 9000 (Epic speed).

 

[MrWhereItsAt]

I think GP farms are easier and more plentiful than they were in Warlords. /QUOTE]

What BtS still can't help you with is Engineers, Prophets and now Spies. You need some Temples etc for Priests (not too tough to do) or certain buildings like Courthouses for Spies, which still don't give you too many points. Engineers are difficult, however, unless you build certain highly-sought after wonders. Apart from that you have only the one that comes with Forges until you get to the Industrial Age. That's one of my great annoyances, in fact, that if you don't get one of those GE wonders, it's very tough to get ANY Great Engineers in the game.

 

[DrJambo]

Caste System?

 

[Soneji]

Is it worth sticking to the caste system only to run a few cities beyond their building (library etc) capability?