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gpt deal problems and stalling unwelcome wars

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by cyberminger, May 17, 2006.

  1. cyberminger

    cyberminger Chieftain

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    Hi, this is my first post. Hello. :goodjob:

    I've recently moved form Civ3 to C3C and am trying to move up the difficulty levels - currently doing well with the Celts at Emperor. I've noticed that since I updated to C3C (or it may have been when I updated to the latest patch), that i've NEVER been able to get a gpt deal for anything. Even if i offer 1000 gold or a tech no-one has for 1gpt, the advisor says that "they would never agree to such a deal" and the AI never accepts.

    Is this a bug, or is it much harder to get gpt on C3C? I'm always careful not to do stuff to jeopardise my reputation. It kind of makes keeping up with the tech race difficult at Monarch/Emperor - I prefer to go 0% science, Great Library and then hit the research when GL becomes obsolete and I'm a Republic with top infrastructure... TThing is, getting the GL can only get harder with larger maps and higher levels. At this rate, I'll never get to Sid level...

    Thoughts would be appreciated. :cool:

    Oh, and I'd also like to ask if the following is a tactic that usually works -
    I go for rapid expansion till even the worst land is filled - to keep up with this, I often keep 1 Spear per city for happiness, and put 2-3 in the border cities if the border's not too long. Now, whilst this is going on, a war with a neighbour is a bad idea - I want to make Settlers and Spears and Workers, not huge numbers of military units. War's an especially bad idea when the neighbour has a fairly good UU available - current game, the Hittites tried it on a few times with their 3-man chariots. Don't want to be triggering a GA for them... So as soon as i see them cross the border with their offensive stacks, I buy stuff off them for gpt to discourage attacking financially. I also sign RoP or sell them resources - I've read that the AI hates to break this sort of thing. So i do all that and the buggers STILL attack me. :confused:

    Does this tactic usually work? Or do I have a bug again? Any other tips?
     
  2. Turner

    Turner Deity Retired Moderator

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    Generally, when you can't get a GPT deal it means your rep is trashed. You broke an agreement, be it gpt, war declaration, resource trade, before the deal was up. Are you ending any kind of deal before it's up? Like signing an MPP with a Civ, having to go to war with an enemy of them, and then signing peace before they do or 20 turns?
     
  3. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    That means your reputation is damaged.

    Note, your reputation can get damaged unintended.
    If you have a deal for a luxury and the trade route crosses another country, war with that country ends the deal and it will hurt your reputation. Same if a barbarian destroys the trade route or maybe colony.
    You will need to be more carefull about the 20 turn deals you make.


    Very good.

    Learn not to build spears. While spears have their place on SID level, you should not build them now. First learn to use your millitary offensively, then when you play SID, you may go build spears again, but that is in another context. You will then use your spears together with slow moving attackers and catapults, merely to protect your attackers and catapults. Not so much to defend your cities. (On sid you need catapults to be efficient enough to handle the AI millitary, since they are slow, you also use partly slowmoving attackers (and part fast movers who can retreat back into the stack after making a kill)


    yes, they will attack. I don't know where you read that, but it is the opposite. Once the AI decides to attack you, they WILL attack you. Abuse this like you do, you basically get free techs stuff from them since you won't be paying GPT. But you won't stop them from attacking you.
    I wouldn't worry too much about that GA. They will get it anyway, so its actually better if they get it in despotism. Personally i prefer to decimate an AI before it can really benefit from its GA. If you build no spears, but attackers instead, you may be able to do so as well.
     
  4. cyberminger

    cyberminger Chieftain

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    Re: Trashed rep - I am very careful not to break any agreement, my neighbours are usually polite or cautious at worst towards me. I'll try it again, like the first time i meet someone or something, but they won't even accept 1000 gold from me for 1gpt from them.

    Re: No defensive units - surely you need some at the border, no? If i'm going to get attacked, my theory is that the AI will have built up its offensive units and it'll fling 'em all at me before i can fully mobilise everything. If it throws all its units at my well-defended and backed-up border towns, then they'll die and i can counter attack thereafter. If i've got enough fast attackers and/or bombard units, then i'll attack the stacks but if i don't, then i don't want to leave half-dead slow offensive units in the open, so i let them come to me, commit suicide and then i attack.

    I also think I'm a bit of a builder. Maybe i should try the archer thing... I like Swords and love to kick some earlyish ass with those, but i also like a Religious civ with cheap temples to stop the AI plugging the gaps in between me cities whilst i'm expanding for those faraway luxury resources...

    I spose i could conquer the resources instead but it seems easier to expand over to them.

    Thanks for considered replies though. I suppose I'm still in the "learning phase"
     
  5. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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    This does not mean that your rep is trashed as a trashed rep only affects deals where you yourself are giving payment on per turn basis, be it with luxes, resources or gpt. This is not the case here though as you are only offering up front 'goods' as techs and lump sums. Up front payment is always possible even if your rep is shot.

    It is just that the AI does not have the gpt available here in this case.

     
  6. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Oh yeah, i read it the wrong way around.

    To test your reputation, make sure you have gpt available, offer 1 gpt for 1 gold lumpsum. If your reputation is ok, they will take it.

    Indeed, your reputation does not need to be harmed if they don't want to pay you gpt. The AI usually starts paying gpt early or halfway trough the middle ages.
     
  7. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Builders don't really seem to make it to SID level, so you might want to change that ;)
    Temples should never be build, religious is the worst trait in the game. Try agricultural for a change. Iroquois are the strongest civ, they have the best traits and the best unique unit by far. Only on SID level, where people go for the defensive units with catapults and argipellago maps, people prefer the dutch or french.

    No, you should not build defensive units even if you are a builder.
    If you have to defend 6 border towns with 3 spears each and the AI sends a stack of 8 units to one of those towns, they will decimate your defenders. Not only that, they have free reign to herras your workers and pillage your lands.
    If instead of those 18 spears, you build horsemen, you can attack his units as soon as they enter your land. (and refuse to leave when you ask) This is a much more efficient defence, and you are ready to counter attack with every unit you have.

    horses are the prefered unit because their speed alows them to move 6 tiles over the roads inside your territory, so they can defend a huge area. (13 tiles wide if you station them in the middle)
    Swords are mostly used when you have exces money (you said you like to build the GL, so you will have plenty cash) and upgrade warriors. Do not build swords yourself if you have horses available though. Horses are better defenders, at least as good attackers, can retreat to safety after making a kill, and can be upgraded to knights later.

    Also, do not just build "some" bombardment units. Bombardment units are slow and you don't want your attack force to be slowed down unneeded. Up to deity, just build nothing but horses. This will provide you a fast strike force, don't let yourself be slowed by defenders or bombard units.
    On SID level, build like 60% bombardment, 20% defender and 20% attacker units. Both fast and slow moving units can be used for the attackers. Fast attackers have the advantage that they can take out units and retreat to safety. As soon as you have an army, fill it with defenders and you have ultimate safety for your stack (AI will not attack healthy armies unless they have vastly superior attackers like at least cavalry vs a spear army)

    An example of the power of horses is my current game.
    My neighbour China is twice as strong as i am. They have twice the territory, they have twice the citizens, twice the army and they have a technological advantage. Still, i just destroyed 2 of their towns because my fast moving horses were able to reach these cities the same turn war was declared.
    China is now sending stacks with Medieval infantry to attack me. I just handled the first stack of 8 with my horses. I attacked them with 13 horses and lost 2 against his 8 MDI.

    This is not a case of great luck, think of it like this:
    horses have 2 attack points, MDI have 2 defence points. I send 8 horses to attack the MDI. Half of them win and kill their enemy MDI. The other half loses. Half of the losing horses retreat, the other half dies. So that is 4 kills, 2 retreats and 2 deaths. Now you just need another 5-6 or so horses to destroy the remaining damaged MDI, probably without losses.
    Even if you do not have enough horses, you can retreat the horses after the initial attack and if there is another tile before they reach your cities, you can attack the rest again with your healthiest horses before they reach your city.
     
  8. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    As was stated if they won't give you 1gpt for something they probably don't have it to give. They are not smart enough to reassing pop to gain an extra coin or disband a useless unit.

    I think Wacken would also agree spears can be useful in some variant games, such as AW, but you peaceful mid level players, no need to ever build spears.

    Later you may find a use for a few well placed pikes, but generally defenders with no rails won't be able to get to where you need them. Of course CxxxC spacing solves most of your defense problems, but builders at these levels with likely use wider spacing.
     
  9. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Yes, in variants you may need them.
    The few defenders you can sometimes build are very situational, thats why i never mention that. The chance is much bigger that a learning player will abuse this to build defenders when he should not.

    An example however i remember from i think gotm27.
    This was a deity game on a pangea. The pangea was however devided in 2 parts by a 1 tile wide land bridge. Just on the other side of that land bridge, was the strongest AI in the game (Persia). In that game, i put 3 defenders in a fortress on a hill on the land bridge with about 8 bombardment units and 3 attackers. This was enough to keep Persia on their side of the pangea while i ravaged my side of the pangea with some 80 mounted warriors.
    That is the only situation i remember where it was a really good place to build some defenders below sid, and i didn't need more than 3 or so.
     
  10. cyberminger

    cyberminger Chieftain

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    OK, I can see that offensive units are good defensively, but NO def units? Doesn't that let the AI pick off some of the horses etc before they get to the target? or after they've attacked? or is the idea to entirely wipeout all resistance in one turn?

    NB - current game - no horses and iron a LONG way away - too long to be without military, especially as i'd managed to hem in the neighbours on 2 borders and was free to expand on the other side - so they were building military whilst i was still expanding...

    Also, when expanding, i'm guessing one needs to also designate a couple of military producing cities and have them pump out units. what about accompanying settlers?

    Sorry I'm asking so many questions, I have just one more (for now:blush: )

    This pared-down, attack-attack-attack mentality appears to be the way lots of you top players do it, but is that the only way? do you just play every game the same way to get to the hardest level? I really like trying different civs and maps and aiming for different victory conditions - quite liking the religious culture/diplo/late military aim; last time it was science and then murdering all comers with cavalry. I'll probably go for an early military strat next time after all this advice, but is the game only beatable this way on high levels? That's just a bit of a shame for such a wide-ranging, open game...

    Does that make me a builder?

    Thanks again
     
  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    No defensive units. Keep your horses iside cities from where they can cover a large border area. When they invade, you take them out. For your horse to be in danger, multiple things must be true:
    -Your horse has no movement after the attack to retreat away from the border
    -Your horse killed an enemy right at the border
    -There are roads for your opponent so that you cannot see what may attack you next turn.
    Then, your horse may still retreat after it is attacked.

    Also, to prevent unit exchange and to have a favorable fight, be carefull when to attack. Try to prevent the situations i just mentioned and try not to fight enemy units on hills.

    While expanding, the AI normally shows no agression.They start being agressive when they run out of space to expand. During the expansion, you only need to defend your settlers against barbarians. The best way to do this is by scouting ahead with a very few warriors (fewer than you have cities should be enough) to make sure the road is safe for your settler. occasionally they will fight a barbarian, but it is not needed to kill them all. It is ok if the barbarians attack newly settled towns and take some gold. Just make sure they don't take any settlers or workers and your ok.

    If, what you want to do is maximise the chance for victory and win the game as early as possible in the victory condition you choose, the early game is indeed pretty much always the same for all victory conditions except 20k culture.
    You expand until there is no space, you proceed expanding by conquest. Now, either you proceed until you win by domination or conquest, or you ICS the area and use it to provide you as many scientists as possible for a Space/UN victory, or you ICS the area so that you have as many as possible cities in which you rushbuild culture for a 100k culture victory.

    If you really want to do things different, you could simply play other than what is considered optimal. But once you know what is optimal, it may be difficult or feel weird to do that. That is why you can think of variant games. You set yourself some extra rules. Some possible variants are the following, but you could use any additional rules you can think of:
    -Always war. - You must declare on anyone you see and never make peace (pretty difficult, doing this at deity is an almost insane challenge)
    -One City Challenge. - You may only have 1 city troughout the game. (usually leading to 20k victories)
    -Once City Conquest Challenge. - You may only have 1 city troughout the game and you must win by conquest (i estimate emperor is probably the highest possible level to do this)

    But you may think of any rules possible.
    Even if you decide not to conquer your neighbours, it is normally still best to build only offensive units. In some games like AW, there will however just be too many offending units. In these cases you need to use special tricks to keep them at bay. You may want to place a small stack of defenders on top of a mountain inside enemy territory for example to absorb their attacks.

    If you have no resources available, conquering them with archers has the highest priority.

    And about that attack attack attack mentallity, well, that is the best thing in every strategy game i played until now. It really is not without a reason that people say attack is the best defense. It is true.
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I tried all sorts of different styles and still do from time to time. One form of a variant for a warmongger is to play as a builder. You can of course play peaceful with only wars forced upon you at least up to emperor, but this is less fun imo.

    A cross bewteen building and peace and some aggresson can work nicely, as long as you can at least use your workers well.

    As to having units picked off, you try to minimize that, but the loss of some horses or swords is not important in a non AW game. You can run into games where you do not have access to horses and sometimes no iron either.

    This just means you need to use archers and will take more losses as they cannot retreat nor can they get out of danager. Here you can use some spears to try to reduce losses, but they are traveling with the attackers, not sitting in towns. You may even get some cats to help once you have math.

    This is very useful for attacking towns, until you get an army or better units.
     
  13. IronJeff

    IronJeff War Dog

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    I recently moved from vanilla to C3C (Civ III Complete) and I can tell you from experince that in conquests it is harder to get a decent gpt deal out of the AI. 1) they seem much less inclined to do it 2)tradeable stuff happens later. the map trading is much later and that affects how soon you can find an AI harbor.
     
  14. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Maybe a variant for you would be to pick Ghandi and not allow youself to declare any wars, decline demands or give opponents the choise to leave or declare :)

    (still, that should not make you build spearmen though)
     
  15. Sir_Lancelot

    Sir_Lancelot Emperor

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    I do not fully agree with the no defensive units strategy. Fast enemy units can attack towns the same turn they declare war.

    Being ready for aggression is not always the best defense.
     
  16. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    That disadvantage does not outweigh the disadvantage of building defenders.

    If you are equal in production with your enemy, and you build part defenders and part attackers while your opponent has only attackers:
    -You cannot invade him because he has twice as many units than you can bring.
    -He can invade you because you both have an equal number of units, but not all your units can be in battle. Part of your units have low mobility and are too far away to be usefull.
    -He is in control of the game.

    This is lesson number one for strategy games. Defensive units are only usefull if their cost efficiency is a multitude higher than that of attacking units or if you only have 1 point to defend. In civ3, defenders do not have enough of an advantage to be worthy.

    The best solution to the problem you mention is to be the one declaring and attacking. If you decide to be peacefull and you don't attack, just retake the lost town in the rare situation where the AI may take it on the first turn of war.
     
  17. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Sir Lancelot, we are talking about games at Emperor or lower for the most part. In those games the AI is not strong enough to be much of a concern.

    Once you get to the knights, you should be making them whimper, not attack. You will have some defenders or even armies in places that are potential targets from some rogue civ.

    You can have a few pikes, if you like, as long as they were build from scratch, but you don't need them as knights have the same defense. The main value of pikes here is they are cheaper.

    Really at knight stage, the neighors are the ones that have to worry about defense, not me.
     
  18. goodsmell

    goodsmell Psychonaturalist

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    By my own experience , when the AI is furious on you and you want some Tech from him or luxuries , he will demand more than he will demand when he's polite / Gracious.

    when at war , the AI loves to send some spear to your territories and pillage your luxuires.
    So what I say is you need sometimes an Offensive unit not only in enemy's border or your border , you need them in your central cities near the luxuries and resources.

    about the gpt problems , I don't think the AI always sees the benefit of the deal with gpt's , it is also possible he does'nt have so much gold and especialy not some gpt for you .
    Check how much Gold he has , if he has 10 gold , I'm not sure he'll got the +1gpt to trade with you .

    btw , an early attack on the AI is good , don't let him meet the whole world ,and try to not trade with him , especialy a RoP . try to destroy him completely ( less worries , more territory ;) )

    and last advice , listen to Wacken's advices ;)
     
  19. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Yes, at the lower levels they are no danger. Basically, the AI is no danger because it is too stupid to do what you say at any level.

    However, if you play human against human, it is i think (i have no experience in multiplayer civ3, just playing my first pbem, but i am rather sure i am right here) even more important not to build defenders. Humans are much better at taking control of the game if you build defenders.
     
  20. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Giving someone who is about to attack you GPT or an ROP is a bad idea. Actually, a ROP is a really bad idea, cause you can't tell them to leave.

    They will trash their rep anyway, when they declare when they are inside your borders.

    To dissuade another civ from attacking, build archers, not spears. You get attacked, in general, when you are weaker than the your neighbors and you have something they want (resources, tech, land) - or it's germany and he hasn't fought anyone in awhile, of course. The algorithm for determing strength of units gives twice as much weight to offensive strength as defensive strenght - so an archer (2-1) is nearly twice as intimidating as a spear (1-2)
     

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