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[NFP] Gran Colombia first look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by tedhebert, May 19, 2020.

  1. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Could always hope for some patch notes today. Hope is the last to die.
    ---

    There's a joke in Portuguese and Spanish speaking countries. Esperanza/Esperança is the word used for Hope, but it's also a female name. So:

    - "Esperanza is the last to die."
    - "Esperanza? She died last month of tuberculosis."

    :shifty:
     
  2. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Sadly, patch notes have never been published early that I can recall.
     
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  3. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    I have a vague memory of getting them a day before in a case or two but they already confirmed on Twitter that the patch notes are coming with the release.
     
  4. Wyvern_Parade

    Wyvern_Parade Warlord

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    First of all, I'm very glad to have Gran Colombia and Bolivar in the game! The general (pun intended) theme of the civ is really aggressive, but with flexible bonuses which I really like. And I'm glad that even though historically they came later, they still get bonuses that apply in the earlier eras so they aren't a blank civ before you hit Renaissance.

    The best part of the design for me is the unique great generals. I love that they have strong retirement abilities so there can be interesting decisions made as to whether keep or retire them. The fact that they stack with regular great generals is obviously very powerful. I'm getting flashbacks to playing multiplayer vanilla when all great generals' combat bonuses used to stack... the horror. But I think this alone isn't any stronger than some current bonuses we have in the game.

    I also love the concept of giving extra movement, particularly to civilian units. It's one of those simple but meaningful and flexible bonuses like China's extra builder charge and Greece's extra wildcard slot. Now on the military side, that's another story. It seems everyone here (including myself) expects it to be too powerful and make domination games too easy. I'm willing to hold out judgment until we actually get to play though. And to be fair, many current civs have OP bonuses (see Scythia, Australia, Warcarts, Nubia, etc.) so it's not like Gran Colombia will be the only outlier here.

    Some have made good suggestions on how to limit it if necessary, so might as well throw my idea in as well. I'd like to see the +1 movement only apply to civilian and recon units. That way the economic and scouting benefits are still there from turn 1 and apply all over the map. I think the free great generals and free move after promoting (another excellent, unique part of their design) are enough to represent the speed of Bolivar's armies.

    When it comes to balance in Civ though, I think we need to accept that not everything is made to be perfectly balanced in a strategic sense. Some things are there for historical flavor, others to give less experienced players a fun shot at beating a higher difficulty than they usually play, and some are even meant to bring light to often overlooked mechanics in the game (Hungary's levying ability for example). So maybe Gran Colombia will be "balanced" or maybe they'll be the strongest civ in the game by a mile, but perhaps the Civfanatics deity only players or hardcore multiplayer people aren't the target audience for this particular civ.

    Looking forward to playing both Gran Colombia and the Maya (currently fluctuating between S and F tier) soon!
     
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  5. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    good quote.

    after 8 months of silence i can’t be bothered to much about a patch or dev stream reaching us one day earlyer or later. Very happy to look forward on what firaxis will create for civ 6 in the next year. If a 40 euro season pass is equal to a full expansion. I would be very happy. Excited if the next patch has more to offer then just more content.
     
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  6. Pitohui

    Pitohui Chieftain

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    This is the problem I have with the maya also-a flat farm bonus that seems uncreative.Both civs seem to have fairly interesting ideas that are not fleshed out enough.im very much considering passing on the pass and waiting for more interesting stuff to appear which I can buy separately
     
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  7. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    The farm bonus allows Maya to settle in grey tiles, which are typically the last to be settled by any other Civ. It's not uncreative if it permits something completely unique. @Wyvern_Parade mentioned simple abilities like China's extra builder charge and Greece's extra wildcard. The builder charge ties in nicely with the Great Wall and boost to wonders, and the wildcard allows Greece more advanced and flexible government choices, including early Great People. It's thematic and it feels right.
     
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  8. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    But with the Maya, this bonus comes coupled with a malus: no housing from adjacent water. This means that you have to change how you read the map and evaluate your city placement. This again plays into the Leader Ability, which also affects how you place your cities, and with the Unique Infrastructure, a Campus replacement which you will want to place differently from the normal Campus. These are all tied together, and give the Mayan abilities a common theme of careful city placement and planning, combined with a larger degree of control. Smaller benefit from water also means smaller dependence on it, and the adjacencies for the Observatory are to a larger degree provided by things you build yourself, as opposed to map features.
     
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  9. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    What about this:

    - Settling your first City and entering a New Era grants a Comandante General.
    - Comandante General grants +1 movement to all land units within range plus unique passive and retire abilities. Passive bonuses stackable with Great Generals.
    - Promoting a unit does not end that unit's turn.

    This way you could choose whether to tie the early Comandante general to a scout and go explore, or leave it in the city for faster builders, or use him to speed up settler movement. It gives the player choice on how to use it. In later eras you must decide whether to retire them for the bonuses, or keep several of them to fulfil different functions in your empire.
     
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  10. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    Yeah, there you go. :) This is still powerful, but more within normal bounds, and way more interesting, as it adds a lot more depth and decision making for the player. How and where do you use your CG, at what point do you retire him for an instant benefit as opposed to keeping him around to speed up units...I like it.

    It also makes me ponder the possibility of making CGs killable. That would add some mild risk to sending your CGs into battle. Actually, I don't think I would mind making all Great People killable. It is kind of weird right now when you can use your Great Artists as immortal explorers who can move behind enemy lines without fear, as nothing can harm them but you and your retirement button.
     
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  11. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    I've just realized that the Comandante General is tied to Gran Columbia's 'era', not the R&F 'world era'. Making it significantly stronger - you can rush one of the era changing techs/civics to get your GG and not have to wait for the whole world era to change.

    I'd give odds to Sumer or Nubia being able to take him out first if they act immediately, but that might be about it. Korea could still potentially tech up and play defensive. Indonesia might have a fighting chance courtesy of religious settlements. Hungary if there's a CS nearby, tho chances are Bolivar will find it first and get the initial envoy. Iirc Cyrus's ability only works if he's the one declaring war, so he's screwed. Kupe might have a chance if he sees Bolivar first and sails to a different landmass :)
     
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  12. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I find the hoopla about the same idle animations silly (sorry, mini rant incoming). I turned animations off about halfway through my first game of Civ 6 and have never turned them back on, and likely never will. For a game where potentially every civ in the game might send you some inane kudos or insult during the AI turn, being jerked away from the map and watching the same animations 16 billion times not only is incredibly tedious but also artificially lengthens an already very long game. If animations were used sparingly on maybe a first meet, declaration of war, and when you initiate diplomacy, and those silly messages were treated like gossip or sidebar notifications, maybe I'd leave them on. Heck, just give us a toggle option to treat them like AI diplomatic actions are already treated in multiplayer games. I admire the work the animators do, but personally the amount of effort that goes into the leader animations is wasted on me because there's just too much of it throughout the game.

    (Also, if everything is a static image then modded civs fit in pretty seamlessly...)

    I've found the best animation settings for me are static leaders, fast movement, and animated battles, as battles are really the only thing that I want to be sure I don't overlook.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    More on topic...

    Gran Colombia is cool I guess. Doesn't really fit my playstyle on first glance, but the extra movement + hacienda + unique GP retirement bonuses look like they might actually work very well for a more peaceful builder like me. Gran Colombia / Monumentality synergy could result in an absolute infrastructure and settlement explosion.
     
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  13. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Maybe limit their +1 Movement speed for Golden Ages only?
     
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  14. bite

    bite Unofficial Civilization Cartographer Moderator

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    Or during certain types of war
     
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  15. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    I don't think Maya is going to be and F-tier civ, but I find it hard to believe that they'd be B-tier either. They will be extremely dependent on map, IMHO more so than most other civs, and Even if theorically you could go for the 13 cities max, I think it will almost always be a bad call to do so because of the map,
    so I believe that the max to have an empire of GOOD cities will be more around 8-9-10. What remains to be seen, and almost impossible to tell atm, is how good they'll be able to get with only that many cities. It'll depend a lot on start bias imo. Still, I believe it will be a FUN civ to play if you like the thinking game;
    placing pins for all cities as soon as the area around the capital is explored to 6 tiles all round, then also pinning you observatories and farms... since I usually like to do that with all civs, I should enjoy it. Only still a little sad that the 6 tiles limit isn't 7 or 8 to make this civ eminently playable and fun, instead of just MEH.
     
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  16. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

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    The flat bonus you grain for as a part of a mechanic with a downside that allows you for flexible settlement and matched with Civ ability and UD. Hmmm... I would love to see more similar flat and uncreative bonuses in the game ;) But of course, you can always expect something else.
     
  17. Hokie Fan

    Hokie Fan Chieftain

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    Gran Colombia seems like a solid civ, but I think I'll pass on playing them for a while unless their theme music is really good. I like civs, regardless of strength, that have a unique play style and Gran Colombia doesn't do it for me. The bonus to movement and promotions without ending a turn are obviously very good bonuses. They'll have a leg up on any civ without a UU in early game wars based on movement, promotions and the free great general. Even absent early war, they're going to be very pleasant to play early game because improvements will be hooked up several turns earlier (a three movement builder is significantly better than a two movement builder) and warriors will be able to chase down scouts before you get an obnoxious horse barb swarm.

    The issue is that their UU and UI come too late for them to be super impactful based on my style of play.

    The UU seems really good, but it's an early industrial unit. Unless I'm playing for a domination win, I don't usually kill people in the early industrial era. If I want to eliminate my neighbor, I'm probably going to try to do it before most of the game is over and if I'm playing purely peaceful, I'm not going to kill my otherwise friendly neighbor just because my UU is good. Plus, if I am going for a domination win, I've likely started way earlier and have already snowballed by industrial.

    The hacienda seems nice, but it's also unlocked so late. To me, the hacienda is the equivalent of the outback station, but the outback station is unlocked in the middle of the medieval era (right after you get the feudalism builder charge bonus too) whereas the hacienda is unlocked as the second to last civic of the renaissance. For the renaissance, in 90% of my games, I will unlock one of the two government civics, diplomatic service, humanism and the enlightenment before mercantilism. This means that for many of the hacienda tiles, you will have already built improvements and will have to replace them.

    The unique GG is fine, but it doesn't seem terribly interesting to me.

    Overall, Gran Columbia seems like it will be high on tier lists, but, like Korea, it's just an overall good civilization that won't be super interesting to me to play.
     
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  18. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Hardly things you build yourself... since you cannot magically make plantation luxuries (or bananas) simply "appear"... you are pretty much limited by the map.
    Careful city planning (using fancy map pins and whatnot) sounds nice, etc. until iron and horses appear and completely ruin all your well-laid plans.

    And people are acting like Maya is the only civ that can settle without water... ummm hello, ever heard of granaries anyone (not to mention things like stepwells and mekewaps) and I still maintain that early farms are a very bad way to spend your builder charges. All new cities will need 2 builders to get them going instead of one (one for farms on tiles that you would never work early and another for plantations which you need for your campi) and that is A LOT of early gold or production wasted.

    Any civ can settle a waterless city if the tiles are worth it. It's just that the other civs get a bonus for settling next to water, and that Maya completely forfeits that bonus to begin with in exchange for stronger farms (so not worth it IMO).

    Worst of all for a science civ, you will most likely go for industrial zones, but you wont have any incentive to build aqueducts (I guess dams are still fine) since, if I understand the mechanics correctly, gaining housing as if it has freshwater = 0 housing for Maya.
     
  19. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    it might be a fun mechanic if bolivar gets one extra movement if you capture one of his cities till the rest of the game when at war with this civilization. Or something more substantial. I can see firaxis nerfing this civ in the future. But untill then anyone wanting to play one difficulty level above his playing strenght. Should have fun beating the AI with gran colombia.
     
  20. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Carl (of Firaxis fame) clarified that the aqueduct gives Maya the full bonus since no Maya city will have the fresh water bonus. So, Maya actually have a greater than average incentive to build aqueducts.
     

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