[NFP] Gran Colombia first look

[Thenewwwguy]

Hardly things you build yourself... since you cannot magically make plantation luxuries (or bananas) simply "appear"... you are pretty much limited by the map.
Careful city planning (using fancy map pins and whatnot) sounds nice, etc. until iron and horses appear and completely ruin all your well-laid plans.

And people are acting like Maya is the only civ that can settle without water... ummm hello, ever heard of granaries anyone (not to mention things like stepwells and mekewaps) and I still maintain that early farms are a very bad way to spend your builder charges. All new cities will need 2 builders to get them going instead of one (one for farms on tiles that you would never work early and another for plantations which you need for your campi) and that is A LOT of early gold or production wasted.

Any civ can settle a waterless city if the tiles are worth it. It's just that the other civs get a bonus for settling next to water, and that Maya completely forfeits that bonus to begin with in exchange for stronger farms (so not worth it IMO).

Worst of all for a science civ, you will most likely go for industrial zones, but you wont have any incentive to build aqueducts (I guess dams are still fine) since, if I understand the mechanics correctly, gaining housing as if it has freshwater = 0 housing for Maya.

i think aqueducts still give them more housing, but i may be wrong.

the half-cost campuses are the seller here. At worst, your observatory will be +3 if you surround it with farms. that’s still pretty good considering you get it twice as early as a theoretical opponent with a campus. the only thing maya could benefit from is a builder to start imo, because I agree they may have a slow and difficult Ancient era, but my guess is the classical era will make them snowball really hard. They look really good.

 

[Leucarum]

Firaxis: "We're going to spend the next year rolling out an expansion filled with multiple new civs and leaders, new game modes, new districts/wonders, and new patches. We really think you're going to enjoy it."

CivFanatics: "But what about the leader animations?!?!?"

100% agreed. If it means we get more civ choices, please firaxis reuse all the leader animations you need to!

 

[Sostratus]

i think aqueducts still give them more housing, but i may be wrong.

the half-cost campuses are the seller here. At worst, your observatory will be +3 if you surround it with farms. that’s still pretty good considering you get it twice as early as a theoretical opponent with a campus. the only thing maya could benefit from is a builder to start imo, because I agree they may have a slow and difficult Ancient era, but my guess is the classical era will make them snowball really hard. They look really good.

Having to inject a builder into your order early does mess with deity builds, but for most players it won’t be a big deal.
Where I protest is that the Mayan palace gives 1 housing; this means the growth penalty for housing starts as soon as you hit pop 2.
What I like about observatories is you can exchange farms for districts later without losing anything.
Once you get your capital city group and their aqueducts up it won’t matter as much.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Having to inject a builder into your order early does mess with deity builds, but for most players it won’t be a big deal.
Where I protest is that the Mayan palace gives 1 housing; this means the growth penalty for housing starts as soon as you hit pop 2.
What I like about observatories is you can exchange farms for districts later without losing anything.
Once you get your capital city group and their aqueducts up it won’t matter as much.

yeh exactly. Observatories, contrary to the common statement i’ve been hearing, are not worse than campuses. They pay off by being made twice as fast, although overtime a regular campus might catch up. This means your key is to make a ton of observatories and snowball early, while maximizing your surrounding terrain and using bananas, cotton, silks, dyes, to your advantage.

I’d hope that at least some regular adjacencies are returned to the observatory, like mountains or maybe lakes to reflect how maya cities were often built around cenotes in some patch, and maybe give them a builder to start like the maori, but the civ itself isn’t bad at all.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

as I suspected, the expansion launches tonight, 9:0 PM PDT, 12:00 AM EDT

 

[Caprikel]

Maybe giving the Maya a free builder in every city settled within 6 tiles of the capital would be a good way to help those cities start up, and further emphasize staying within that radius. Also it would need to not stack with the Ancestral Hall.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Before we suggest rebalancing moves for the Maya and Gran Colombia, let's let them get into the game first and see how they actually play. Remember when everyone thought that Russia were going to be really bad before the game's launch? Or how Mali were going to be really underpowered because of their production penalty? I 'member...

My initial impression, for whatever it's worth, is that the Maya will probably fall into the B or A-tier of Civs. Their potential for growth and science yields seems pretty strong. Gran Colombia on the other hand, I do agree with the consensus here that they'll be at minimum an A-tier Civ, if not S-tier. But let's see how over/undertuned everything is in practice before we hit the panic button.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Before we suggest rebalancing moves for the Maya and Gran Colombia, let's let them get into the game first and see how they actually play. Remember when everyone thought that Russia were going to be really bad before the game's launch? Or how Mali were going to be really underpowered because of their production penalty? I 'member...

My initial impression, for whatever it's worth, is that the Maya will probably fall into the B or A-tier of Civs. Their potential for growth and science yields seems pretty strong. Gran Colombia on the other hand, I do agree with the consensus here that they'll be at minimum an A-tier Civ, if not S-tier. But let's see how over/undertuned everything is in practice before we hit the panic button.

I thought Mali ended up faring poorly after all. If they're actually good, I'll have to go back and give them more tries.

 

[bengalryan9]

Maybe giving the Maya a free builder in every city settled within 6 tiles of the capital would be a good way to help those cities start up, and further emphasize staying within that radius. Also it would need to not stack with the Ancestral Hall.

That seems like a bit much.

Honestly I think all they need is for their palace to give a couple of extra housing and that pretty much eliminates people's biggest concern with them.

 

[Guynemer]

Mali has a slow start, but once the Sugubas are built, they are a lot of fun to play.

My main concern for GC is the +1 movement to all units. On first impression, that is NUTS. On second impression, it remains nuts. I suspect if will stubbornly persist in being nuts once I play them this weekend. I am not opposed to a more limited movement bonus--such as for support and civilian units only, or in enemy or neutral lands only, etc.--but this seems like the kind of bonus one would mod into a civ to make them all-powerful.

 

[Jewelrunna]

I thought Mali ended up faring poorly after all. If they're actually good, I'll have to go back and give them more tries.

Mali had to be nerfed because their late game purchasing power was too ridiculous. You have a sort of slow start but once you get your Suguba online, you really can just purchase everything. Really good Civ.

I kind of feel like the same will be true of the Maya. You’ll have a slow start in your cities but once you get your farms up, you can get mega cities.

 

[DWilson]

I thought Mali ended up faring poorly after all. If they're actually good, I'll have to go back and give them more tries.

Mali struggles in the early game, but (for me at least) totally dominates the mid and late games. Gold, in particular for Mali, is like putting all of your production into a pool and then distributing it as needed, and also when needed- rather than having it locked down to a single city in a use now only system. With production, you can only go to certain cities when those cities are ready. With gold you go everywhere, whenever. Need a crossbow to beat back that unit? Have it here and now, or have it in 4-10 turns, wherever you can fit in.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I thought Mali ended up faring poorly after all. If they're actually good, I'll have to go back and give them more tries.

I don't know if you're familiar with the DnD universe but there is a saying: "linear warrior, quadratic wizard". What it means it that a warrior is often more powerful than a wizard at first; but while a warrior will just become stronger and hit harder with his weapon, the wizard will learn more and more powerful spells allowing him more and more power. Slow start, but beautiful endgame.

It's the same with Mali. "Linear civ, quadratic Mali" could be a saying.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I don't know if you're familiar with the DnD universe but there is a saying: "linear warrior, quadratic wizard". What it means it that a warrior is often more powerful than a wizard at first; but while a warrior will just become stronger and hit harder with his weapon, the wizard will learn more and more powerful spells allowing him more and more power. Slow start, but beautiful endgame.

It's the same with Mali. "Linear civ, quadratic Mali" could be a saying.

i’m using ‘Linear Civ, Quadratic Mali’ from now on when I play MP and am asked why i’m using Mali

 

[riddleofsteel]

I don't know if you're familiar with the DnD universe but there is a saying: "linear warrior, quadratic wizard". What it means it that a warrior is often more powerful than a wizard at first; but while a warrior will just become stronger and hit harder with his weapon, the wizard will learn more and more powerful spells allowing him more and more power. Slow start, but beautiful endgame.

It's the same with Mali. "Linear civ, quadratic Mali" could be a saying.

That rings a bell, and sounds pretty much perfect!

 

[bbbt]

I thought Mali ended up faring poorly after all. If they're actually good, I'll have to go back and give them more tries.

If you are playing competitive multiplayer or some tightly packed deity games, they are probably not the best choice, which is what a lot of folks judge on:
-Their production malus does hurt their defensibility in the start.
-You are basically required to build holy sites (though not necessarily a religion) to get the most of them.
-You'll likely be using your first choice of pantheon on religious settlements or something else for an immediate boost.
-They get a ton of gold from foreign trade routes, but if your immediate neighbor wants to kill you (they do get the gold from sending trade routes to CSs as well)

Past 'someone wants to kill me immediately', they are a lot of fun. I actually like to grab the desert pantheon, get a bunch of high adjacency holy sites and suguba, get an early golden age for free inquiry or monumentality, get the gold purchasing governor for district purchasing, and then buy everything.

 

[ShahJahanII]

100% agreed. If it means we get more civ choices, please firaxis reuse all the leader animations you need to!

The leaderscreens could all be cartoons drawn by 6 year olds for all I care

 

[Piranga]

The leaderscreens could all be cartoons drawn by 6 year olds for all I care

Civ leaders have always been a key part of what immersed me into the series. If I wantedd a game that's flat aesthetically I'd go play europea universalis instead. About the current leaders reusing leader animation. I hate it, but in these times of quarantine I understand it. Its because they're likely limited in their game development. Not because they're putting out a shoddy, partially finished product to cash grab.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Civ leaders have always been a key part of what immersed me into the series. If I wantedd a game that's flat aesthetically I'd go play europea universalis instead. About the current leaders reusing leader animation. I hate it, but in these times of quarantine I understand it. Its because they're likely limited in their game development. Not because they're putting out a shoddy, partially finished product to cash grab.

i’ll be honest, i care about leader aesthetics, but I wouldn’t have even noticed the reused idles unless someone brought it up

 

[Piranga]

i’ll be honest, i care about leader aesthetics, but I wouldn’t have even noticed the reused idles unless someone brought it up

I noticed the Amanitore one immediately, I think cause Lady Six Sky has such a similar build, and is holding a staff as well. The Bolivar one was harder for me to see at first, so I can see what you mean there.