Grand Coalition Broken

[Oddible]

There should be some sort of identification of coalition leader or something - the Civ who brought other civs into a war. Only allowable if the coalition leader civ was at war with the other civ prior to inviting other civs to participate.

Any civ can sue for peace but ONLY the coalition leader can vassalize the original enemy.

I don't know how many times my wars have been cut short because my ally who I brought into the war several turns after it began decided to vassalize my enemy. Ugh!!

 

[ezwip]

That's the price you pay in dealing with other civilizations. If you don't like it feel free to war the civ vassalizing your enemy. This will happen out of the blue sometimes when they aren't even at war with another civ. So take it with a grain of salt it would probably have happened no matter what you did.

 

[Inky]

Solver's unofficial patch helps. This is one of the fixes:

AI now only capitulates to the team which has done them a majority of the damage.


So whichever civ did the most damage is the only one which can make the enemy a vassal. If you're the one doing most of the killing, you will get the rewards, most of the time. I'm not sure exactly how this is measured, however, I haven't faced the enemy surrending to someone who barely fired a shot in the war (or worse, wasn't involved at all), when using the patch.

The problem you speak of is frustrating and makes you want to shoot your allies.

 

[Oddible]

Can I install Solver's patch mid-game?

 

[Seras]

AI now only capitulates to the team which has done them a majority of the damage.

i for one prefer the other way and find it more logical

if my country was being ravaged and i felt the need to capitulate, it certainly wouldnt be to the country that did the most damage to my cities and population.

 

[Spearthrower]

i for one prefer the other way and find it more logical

if my country was being ravaged and i felt the need to capitulate, it certainly wouldnt be to the country that did the most damage to my cities and population.

I think you would!!

Or they'd continue damaging your cities and population.... thus you capitulate.

 

[Seras]

not really no

say you're the one attacking and they capitulate to you...how would you react to your allies continuing their attacks on what is now your soil?

 

[Spearthrower]

not really no

say you're the one attacking and they capitulate to you...how would you react to your allies continuing their attacks on what is now your soil?

If I was the one occupying a foreign territory in a war, why would my enemy have the choice about who they capitulate to?

It's a game mechanic and it's got nothing to do with reality.

In reality, France didn't shout "We capitulate to Botswana" when Germany stomped through their lands.... even if they had, it wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. France only had the choice to capitulate to the aggressing power - they couldn't have capitulated to Japan for example, even though they were nominatively at war.

 

[hecubus]

I just turn off the vassal state option.

 

[AnaNg]

not really no

say you're the one attacking and they capitulate to you...how would you react to your allies continuing their attacks on what is now your soil?

That can't happen though, can it? I thought when a civ capitulated peace is auto-declared so in order to continue the war you'd have to re-declare thereby making your previous war ally (the master) enter the new fray against you. I'm not sure if you have to wait the 10 turns though. (not sure if it matters either)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If Germany had capitulated to the Soviet union in 1943.... the US would have had to declare war on the Soviet Union to get any German Territory and vice versa.

If France Capitulated to Japan... and Japan Accepted, then the Germans would have to declare war on Japan. (as a side note, if you have Open Borders with the master, your troops should be able to move through the Vassal.)

You can only Capitulate to someone at war with you, if France Vassalized to Botswana when Germany marched in, then Botswana would declare war on Germany (if Botswana was stupid enopugh to accept)... and the German troops wouldn't be moved at all.

The AI should Capitulate to whomever
1) It likes the most (who they Want to be protected by)
AND
2) is the Strongest (who Can protect them best)

and if that civ won't accept them as a Vassal, they look for other Protectors.

As for the auto-declaration of peace, as long as your troops aren't too deep into the victim/vassal's territory you should be fine. It gets complicated since you could also have troops in the master's territory at that point (Open Borders)

 

[Oddible]

Not that I'm arguing for 'realism' but in fact, if I started the war, and I brought in an ally, then that ally vassalizes the country I started a war with, then it would be equivalent to my ally starting a war with me! I shouldn't have to declare on them, if they want to stop the war I'm waging they should have to declare on me. If a secondary in a war decides the war is over then they have to negotiate with their allies, not with the enemy!

 

[L4zXX0r]

i for one prefer the other way and find it more logical

if my country was being ravaged and i felt the need to capitulate, it certainly wouldnt be to the country that did the most damage to my cities and population.

I agree. Nations are in it for themselves. I'd do the same to the AI if I have the chance.

 

[Spearthrower]

I really don't see why people are assuming that you have a choice. If you have a foreign nation occupying your country, you dont have a choice about who you capitulate to. You may ask a 3rd nation for support/aid etc... but capitulate means:

capitulate
verb
1 to accept military defeat:
Their forces capitulated five hours after the Allied bombardment of the city began.

2 to accept something or agree to do something unwillingly:
The sports minister today capitulated to calls for his resignation.

You accept defeat from the occupying country - how exactly would capitulating to a non occupying country help you? You'd still have all the forces in your borders free to continue the war against you. De facto, they are in control if you accept defeat, therefore you no longer have the right to bargain with a 3rd nation.

Is this just people transposing the workings of a game onto the real world??

 

[HiroHito]

That's the price you pay in dealing with other civilizations. If you don't like it feel free to war the civ vassalizing your enemy. This will happen out of the blue sometimes when they aren't even at war with another civ. So take it with a grain of salt it would probably have happened no matter what you did.

You think its logical it can happen out of the blue, but fireaxis doesnt agree with you, check out the fixes list in the sticky.

 

[Oddible]

Oh, its worse than I thought:

- Civs can capitulate to insignificant enemies
- Civs can offer to be vassalized by civs that AREN'T EVEN AT WAR WITH THEM, and this causes me to be at war with the civ that just vassalized them!?!?!

Ugh, ok I'm installing Solver's patch until 3.13 comes out.

 

[Dominico]

Capitulation in the game sense is like an ultimate alliance rather than a surrender.

Look on it as the country giving in and seeking defence from the country it chooses. They have basically said, ok we are getting kicked by country A. Please defend us from them and we will give you anything!

It has happened many times through history, often with the country which the loser "capitulates" to waring the initial aggressor which caused it.

A good example would be lets say, South Korea. Attacked by the north they "capitulated" (in civ terms) to America (united nations) and America declared war on North Korea to defend them. Now America (UN) still protects them.

In a game of civ if it was broken down, the vassel system would cover this perfectly.

The difference with world war 2 was not that france capitulated in Civ terms. They had lost pretty much all their cities! This is the civ equivalent of you taking all their cities. (The final ones capitulated to Italy in the south)

The game works abstractly and i think it works pretty well in most cases. It can be annoying but so is real life. I love the challenges it throws up sometimes.

 

[Elros]

Take a look at WWII.

It was Britain who declared war first and brought the others in. Did all of the Axis capitulate to them?

Generally countries have seemed to end up under control of whoever kicked up the most fuss about wanting to be in charge.

 

[BYC]

It's annoying, but I rather keep it the same. The AI will make the decision based on a number of factors, and I wouldn't have a problem with any of it.

There's any number of real examples as well as explanations on why the losing civ would capitulate to another. There's also a number of made up factors in the game they could choose. If the AI is suppose to be more like a human, then it should be free to choose whatever it wants.

Perhaps the AI doesn't want to because:

- Hates you, so it surrenders to an ally out of spite.
- Your ally and the AI share the same religion or civics, so it likes that civ better.
- Your ally is stronger than you, so your ally can protect the losing civ better.
- Your ally is weaker, so the AI believes it has a chance to break free later on.

As for your ally and you now being at war....well, BtS has solved that problem unless I'm mistaken. It's the status you and your ally was at that the vassal takes, not the other way around where the ally follows the vassal. If the human player doesn't like it, the human can declare war and attack their former ally.

I definitely remember my ally and I warring another another civ, and then the enemy capitulates to my ally. In Warlords, this means my ally and I would be at war, but in BtS, they fixed it. Now that I think about it, wasn't this fixed near the end of Warlords era?

 

[Dominico]

One thing that does bother me though is that the AI never seems to come to me to capitulate ever. It happened in Galactic civs all the time but never in Civ4.

Instead you have to ask the AI to capitulate or it will go to someone else/die.