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Great Artist. Bomb or specialist?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by J_RocKeT76, Jan 14, 2006.

  1. J_RocKeT76

    J_RocKeT76 Prince

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    Great Southern Land,AU
    Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are when using artists in a cultural victory.
    Do you use the Artist's for a great work 6000pts or get them to join as specialist generating 14 culture Per Turn?
    Obviously in late game the Great Work is the best option but in the early game, starting to wonder whether the specialist is better option.
    It takes 428.5 turns for 14 to get to 6000 but the 14 pts generated per turn would accumulate with Free Speech, Religious Wonders and Culture Investments.
     
  2. Krupo

    Krupo Old-time newsgrouper

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    Yeah, you can probably estimate a cut-off-year in gameplay when you switch from specialists to culture bombs... I haven't bothered to calculate it, using a mix of intuition and common sense instead. :)
     
  3. Bushface

    Bushface Deity

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    I play at Noble level and am shown that the Great Work would be worth 4000 points, not 6000, which changes the arithmetic. However, in the course of who-knows-how-many hours and lots of games, I have never had a Great Artist to play with! Prophets, now, come to me with distressing frequency - I even had one when the probability was only 2% and that was the last one to be generated before the end of the game. Darn near useless.
    For those interested in racking up a high score, it may be worth pointing out that Culture does not enter into the score calculation at all except in that a high-culture city may push your land boundary out by a few tiles, and land tile count is a scoring factor.
     
  4. narmox

    narmox Emperor

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    If you're shooting for a cultural victory, the Great Specialist might actually very useful, since you'll choose civics and do your best to build wonders that increase their cultural output

    And yeah there's a cutoff point where it's worth more to do a culture bomb. I basically calculate it quickly every time I'm offered the choice - I look at how many turns are left, what the modifiers are to culture output, etc.

    Bushface: culture output of a specialist and Great Work value depends on gamespeed. Normal = 4000, Epic = 6000. I don't know for the other ones.
     
  5. automator

    automator King

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    In a war situation (newly conquored city) I'll culture bomb it.

    In almost any other situation, I'll super-specialize. I get steady cultural growth (I've squeezed out an AI civ into revolt with two superspecialist cities bordering it) and some gold out of it. I like the gold.
     
  6. apdavis828

    apdavis828 Chieftain

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    i prefer to use them as specialist in conjunction with hermitage and or cathedrals... i.e. 14 culture per turn + 50 % and maybe even another 50% if i have two cathedrals from different religions or broadcast towers etc.
     
  7. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    One interesting thing take into consideration is that the chance a city has of flipping not only depends on proximity and units garrisoned, but also the culture per turn both cities are generating. So if the defending city is generating 15 CPs @ 1000 culture, and is next to a bombed city generating 5 CPs @ 5000 culture, it has a very low chance to flip (if at all). If the adjacent city is producing two to three times the culture per turn, however, it has a very high chance to flip.
     
  8. Roxtar

    Roxtar Leader of the Musicians

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    Location:
    Idaho USA
    Much like other players, I use late-game Artists to culture-bomb my 2nd & 3rd culture cities so they can catch up culturally with my cap. But unlike other players, I usually don't use early-game Artists as SS's, but rather culture-bomb new cities to prevent barbs from spawning (or AIs from settling) in surrounding squares, or to increase the chance of my neighbors' cities flipping to me. As for the free Artist I get for discovering Music 1st, I usually use him nowadays to hurry Feudalism.
     
  9. BCLG100

    BCLG100 Music Master

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    Normally specialists upto a point.
     
  10. Seras

    Seras BuildingMonger

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    wow..i had no idea...very interesting...i'm gonna have to make some changes to my gameplay =)
     
  11. Shadzy19

    Shadzy19 Warmonger

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    A great work can definatly be utterly useless at times , recently i conquered Spain and her last city was near Mansu Musa's borders , It would take 9 turns to get out revolt so i C-bombed it since mansu's tiles where still 2 tiles away from my city , The revolt ended right away and i took like 3 rows in front of the city.
    Within 10 turns i lost all 3 of these rows to MM's city just to end up in frustration and only half of my tiles to work.
    It definatly seems if you C-bomb a city without culture or with low culture its futile cause within 20 turns you will lose you'r tiles vs a stronger culture city.
     
  12. Screw Flanders

    Screw Flanders Chieftain

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    I like 'em for land grabbing in the relatively early game when the AI is crawling right to every border to build their cities. A good bomb prevents alot of that and those cities that are built are farther and easier to flip as you already have overpowering culture.
     
  13. TrailblazingScot

    TrailblazingScot I was kittenOFchaos

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    Bomb everytime. Be it to gain land for score, to gain land to launch an offensive or to gain rubbish enemy border cities and disband them or best of all to kill off resistance in captured cities promptly.
     
  14. MadMaligor

    MadMaligor Chieftain

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    Culture bombs are great when they flip key enemy cities for you, but I have noticed lately that I am relying more and more on CB's for key resource grabs. Marble, Stone, Horses and iron early to mid game are critical if you cant get anyone to trade you for them. Uranium, oil, aluminum, coal later on....you get the idea. If I go all out for great person production playing say Elizabeth, grabbing the key wonders, jacking up my GP production every way I can...I will at times save up a couple of artists for a double bomb if I see certain key border clashes coming up on the horizon. I rarely use an artist for the culture generation, in fact I dont think I ever have.

    Another thing too, you dont have to flip a city, sometimes just grabbing the land and crippling it is progress enough. ;)
     
  15. Rodatam

    Rodatam Chieftain

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    14 per turn
    but you can easily double or even triple it...
    it depends on the city infraestructure, but usualy i tend to culture bomb, in early -mid games, and super specialist on late ones =]
     
  16. Seras

    Seras BuildingMonger

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    shouldn't it be the opposite?
     
  17. Reg Pither

    Reg Pither Warlord

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    Yes, unlike others here, that's the way I use them, too. I want those early borders to expand as quickly as possible. Later on, there's no space left anyway, or 6000 culture isn't enough to make them grow (on marathon).
     
  18. TyranusBonehead

    TyranusBonehead Bound & Determined

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    It depends on the situation, but if given a free 4000 culture points I'll more often than not, take that. I'll look to see which of my 3 culture cities is lagging first, and if necessary, move the artist to that city before bombing.
     
  19. Skippa

    Skippa Noble

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    Just to get back to J_RocKeT76's question. (Though a little digression is also good IMHO)

    For a cultural victory the main goal to get as much culture as you can before another victory condition is reached. You should really try to get near 400-500% base multipliers in the three culture cities by the end game.

    Free Speech 100%
    Broadcast tower 50%
    Cathedrals 50% each
    Drama culture multiplier 0-100%
    Hermitage 100%

    If you can get 4 or 5 religions (not so hard if you try to found a few yourself and leave border towns as pagan hoping that a foreign religion will spread to it. Or just do a little warmongering ;) ) you can have an extra 200-250% with Cathedrals.

    By late game you should have
    14*400% = 56 culture / turn or more from the artist.

    I find that I can have a 400%+ culture multiplier city early enough to easily out culture the 6000 point culture bomb.
    Creating a super specialist during the early and mid game is much more beneficial than just culture bombing, if you are going for a cultural victory.

    Now, if you are not going for a culture victory then bombing to end revolt or to gain land can be a good choice. I still sometimes turn my artist into a super specialist in a border town because I'd rather have my borders gradually expand into his territory than the other way around (Thalassicus made a good point about Culture rate and city flipping so it seems that my tactic may work out better than I thought.)
     
  20. DraconisRex

    DraconisRex Chieftain

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    You say it's futile, but where would you have been without it? I've conquered cities in that situation and have lost them to my enemies simply because thier old, established culture overwhelmed my new, young culture of the city.

    I've since learned to hoard my Great Artists and to crash-build theaters & collesums while keeping my culture slider at 20% then switching the city to produce culture than just "culture bombing." But that great artist, at times, is all that can keep a city even semi-viable when it was a border city with an established bordering empire.

    And, sometimes, that's just the way you have to go because there is too much pressure.
     

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