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[R&F] Great artists and especially musicians still underpowered

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Odysseas_84, Jan 10, 2019 at 9:30 AM.

  1. Odysseas_84

    Odysseas_84 Chieftain

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    As it has been discussed about a year ago, great artists and (especially) musicians are (still) underpowered.

    The arguments are well-known and it is hard to understand the logic of the devs.

    Great writers are the easiest to get both in terms of point requirements and how easy it is to get those points. Great works of writing are the easiest to place and after printing the tourism effect doubles without requiring any further investment by the player. It is important to add that the early game great writers are cheap and their impact (cultural output, tourism, border expansion) stays in the game for a much longer time, giving them further value.

    Great artists might have 3 charges, but they come later, cost accordingly more, are harder to get points for, the effects of their great works are weaker and the theming of museums is hard to achieve.

    Great musicians are at the moment the most undervalued. Even the first ones come very late in the game, they require a huge amount of points to be spent on and those points are the hardest to acquire among all great people points. Broadcast centers have one slot, which in my opinion is a correct decision, but it further reduces the value of the corresponding great people. Satellite Broadcasts increases the great works of music tourism output, but that policy comes late, there is only a handful great works of music to benefit from it, and we are talking about a game stage where a wildcard typically yields an equivalent of >100 gold per turn, meaning that in almost all scenarios it is wiser not to employ that policy, even for players that only focus on cultural victory.

    A great musician is essentially a great writer that comes way later in the game, costs more, is harder to get points for, has fewer slots where to place his great works, and needs a wildcard policy slot to enhance his tourism effects. This is a bit like designing the library to provide, say, 4 science, and the research lab 2.

    If I was a developer, I would somewhat improve the base tourism effect of great works of art, slightly improve the base cultural effect of great works of music, significantly improve the base tourism effect of great works of music, and add theming bonus for the Hermitage wonder. A tiny enhancement to artifact tourism yields might also be a good idea.

    In my opinion, these effects would not require any other adjustment on the game, as all other, non-great-person-related tourism yields, are already powerful enough. For example the tourism values for holy cities and relics are big and stay long in the game, and wonders, most of which provide massive advantages when built, add a respectable further boost to tourism as well. Other factors affecting tourism seem to be reasonably balanced. Hopefully the rock bands implementation will be balanced too.
     
    kaspergm and Exterrestrial like this.
  2. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Chieftain

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    I would go further than you suggest. I think Great Artists and Great Musicians should also have abilities in addition to creating great works which give tourism. Others have suggested giving some kind of interplay between Great Musicians and Rock Bands (i.e., creating a free Rock Band with XYZ abilities).
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  3. Kurtbob

    Kurtbob Chieftain

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    The inclusion of the Rock Bank Unit and its ability to put on concerts (something the Great Musician did in CivV) complicates understanding the dev's decisions even more.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  4. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    In some ways, this is consistent with other design decisions, where the later in the game something arrives, the weaker it is.

    A similar effect can be noted with buildings, where the Tier 1 buildings are typically more powerful relative to their cost than Tier 2, and Tier 3 buildings are the weakest on a cost-benefit analysis.
     
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  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    I talked about this another time but I think it would be neat if we could get an Opera house building that would be mutually exclusive with the broadcast center.

    The Opera House would come earlier and have more great musician slots and even another writing slot. The broadcast center could mostly stay the same having one slot but also produce more tourism from your rock bands performances.
     
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  6. Steamboat Willem

    Steamboat Willem Chieftain

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    Or like designing the library to get easily achievable bonuses from city states but the research lab to not get those...
     
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  7. MisterBoomBoom

    MisterBoomBoom Chieftain

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    They all should be able to make appearances earlier in the game IMHO with their impacts progressive.
     
  8. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    IMO great artists are for the cultural warmonger and not those seeking a cultural victory. If I want a CV, I build archeological museums. I believe the game to be designed around these 2 paths, making theatre squares useful for both DV's and CV's and offering an additional more specialized choice relative to optimizing your chosen VC.

    I find the great musicians a nice late game hammer to help close the game with the +200% policy card. I find the wonders that hold any type of great work most useful for great works of music.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 11:18 AM
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  9. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    Can we also talk about how Great Artists are much worse the Archeologists, and how Art Museums are much worse than Archaeology Museums? An Archaeologist will give you more era score, it's generally speaking easier to theme them, you can get the scientist that triples tourism from artifacts (lol), and then there's the fact that the Archeology museum provides the same amount of Writer/Artist/Musician points as the Art Museum, which is both illogical and another reason not to build art museums.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  10. man_in_finance

    man_in_finance Chieftain

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    I agree with this. I think the pursuit of perfect harmony or perfect balance in the game detracts from the fact that having stronger and weaker components makes it more esoteric and possibly more interesting to consider.. hence this thread!

    Except you'll end up building an Art Museum to house those Great Works of Art you don't want to preclude from the world. I reckon I end up with something like 80%-20% Archeology to Art. If I see Monet, Van Gogh or Klimt, without slots, its a disgrace to my civilization!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2019 at 3:33 PM
  11. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    The flip side of that is it's harder for a new player to pick up and harder for the AI to play competently.
     
  12. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    I build art museums when I'm warmongering so I don't have to build another costly unit (the archeologist). If I'm warmongering, I'm generally swimming in culture and the bonus from archeology museums is of little matter. I'd rather run a project or build a commercial hub with the hammers I save from not building an archeologist.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I feel they have been too hard on great artists. Basically archeology should maybe give you more because you have to go and get it and theme it but it is not really that hard to do... sure you will not get all of your museums themed but even unthemed they are tringer than artists.
    Artists are just a nightmare... even if you are getting all the GA you need to get all 3 sculptors .... i think the concept is the AI is supported to get one and trade with you but the reality is a little different and waiting for 3 GA sculptors before you fire them off, and to have them twist in a merry dance around your cities is just naff. Why not put the art in ahead of time?... well because the second work from the same artists only gives 1 tourism if in the same museum so it is just not worth doing, you may as well build ancient walls.

    Artists are just messy and useless really. I may build one for the inspiration but even then.... meh. Put simply, the more archaeological museums you have, the more you will theme. Why limit this with some art places. I would rather the GA produced art that later may become masterpieces, that would at least give some flavour. At the moment whether it be one or the other.... it is just filling slots... I tend to push more science and go for resorts, it is a lot cleaner game.

    Are musicians really that good with 1 slot?... nope, they are not, for the effort it just in not really worth it... at least you do not have to theme them... hopefully rock bands will replace them but maybe not... if they did then I wonder what else the US of A would get.
     
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  14. Sagax

    Sagax Chieftain

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    This, sadly.... Hey, Great Musicians are underused - lets rob them of another mechanic where they could be more useful!

    I don’t know why they are changing some of the Civ 5 mechanics just for the sake of it... If they were concerned about Mozart doing concerts in the Modern age (oh the horror! My nation with the sci-fi technology in 1834 won’t possibly comprehend this!), then they could always limit it to Great Musicians from Modern era and later.

    As a whole - give back the secondary abilities of GWAMs. Will solve a lot of the issues in this thread.
     
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Artists are so bad that you could delete all of them and still not really experience any minor setback.

    In fact, unless you have no artifacts to get anymore, building an art museum outside of the inspiration or Reyna city (probably both) is probably a negative thing. I blame mostly Donatello. Nobody wants his garbage sculptures except Kongo.

    But it could be worse. Building a broadcast center is always a mistake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 12:09 PM
  16. HaloCapella

    HaloCapella Chieftain

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    I realized that now since you mentioned it. Never really give much thought when activating a GWAM other than looking for a slot in the map. They can always give each work unique traits or yield, including the standard culture and tourism yield.
     
  17. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Chieftain

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    Here are some simple buff ideas, based on the abilities great artists and great musicians had in Civ 5:

    Every 3 great works of art in your empire reduces the amount of era score needed to get a golden age by 1.

    Just as a flourishing of the arts made it easier to bring about the renaissance in Europe, so too will more art make it easier to achieve all future golden ages in your own empire.

    Every great work of music in your empire reduces the cost of purchasing rock bands by 5%.

    Modern musicians take inspiration from the classical music of the past. The richer your empire's musical history is, the easier it will be to leverage the power of music in the present.
     
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  18. Josephias

    Josephias Chieftain

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    I never got even the point why great musicians come later and are tucked in the Broadcast center. ¿Is it because it is more difficult to find early examples of named musicians? ¿Why don't make their slots interchangeable with great writers (you can broadcast scripts and play live in teathers). Maybe also broadcast centers should provide area-of-efect based gains, such as factories (hey, its BROADcast, isn't it), and great work of music get a similar boost to printing one, but later (plastics?) and more powerful (x3 instead of x2) (besides maybe empowering rock bands somehow - even if they are not playing classical music, they will surely play better if they came from a culture where music has played its part).

    It would be fun as well to theme writing and music for powerful effects, but maybe this discussion is a bit off topic.
     
  19. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    I just hope GS has some form of "Battle of the Bands" so we can objectively assess whether Kpop or Jpop is better.
     
  20. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Warlord

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    The big problem is that there is a significant disconnect between when Great Artists & Musicians become available, & when buildings suitable for their Great Works become available. If we had more regular buildings for storing their Great Works-earlier in the game-& if these Great People had some extra abilities outside of Great Work production, then that would be much better.
     
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