Great Bath

brewgod

Prince
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
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Jet City
Hello Fellow Civ 6 Fans,

What is the Massive obsession that the AI has with building the Great Bath. In almost every game it's built with in the first 20 turns. That said ... I just had a game this week where I am on turn 150 or abouts and I founded a new city on a good size island where I was in shock the Great Bath was never built. I was able to build it in 3 turns.

Different topic...if you only could build 1 wonder in the entire game which one would it be. I clearly understand it depends on which victory conditions you are shooting for.

Thoughts?

Brew God
 
I suspect that the AI prioritizes the Great Bath because it's an early Dam that can protect your infrastructure, though it may overvalue it.

All things being equal, my one wonder would be the Forbidden Palace for the extra Wildcard slot.
 
I haven't noticed specifically, but I think that the AI is just looking for some easy points as soon as it can. Building is easy; moving units to do things is harder.

The Great Library in Civ 5 was similar: a free tech? that was hard to pass up that early in the game.
 
The game likes to build wonders that it can build. Great Bath is pretty much the earliest unlock with a requirement that many civ's will be able to meet given how dominant rivers are as starting locations.

The Never-Gonna-Get-It that always riles me is Machu Pichu. I don't get why that's the tech path to program an AI to beeline. Irks me enough that it helped motivate me to default to randomized research trees.
 
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re: only one Wonder - I think if I am playing Australia, I'd shoot for the Eiffel Tower.
It is kind of situational for me, for example if I had a fantastic Science producing city then I'd go for Oxford University.
The late game stadium one (Estádio do Maracanã) is pretty good though. Extra amenities for all cities are really handy, it's a shame that it comes really late in the game. I suppose the Colosseum is better in that regard, because you can get to it earlier in the game.
 
Different topic...if you only could build 1 wonder in the entire game which one would it be. I clearly understand it depends on which victory conditions you are shooting for.

Thoughts?

Brew God

Pyramids, for sure. Forbidden City would be my 2nd choice.
 
Pyramids. There's no wonder quite like it in terms of return on investment. Say you build it by harvesting three woods, one with each builder. Those three builders cost you 50, 54, and 58 production, respectively. When you complete the wonder, each builder gets back one charge, and you get a free four-charge builder. For you to get seven extra build charges without the Pyramids, you would've had to spend 62 + 66 + 70 production = 198 production to obtain another three builders. Seven of the nine charges provided by these builders would cost 154 production (198 * 7 / 9). Pyramids also yield 2 culture per turn, similar to a monument. At 60 production, the monument is regarded as one of the most efficient pieces of infrastructure to obtain in the game. In total, upon completing the Pyramids, which costs 220 production, you get back roughly 214 production worth of goods.

Now, let's see how much value from the Pyramids we can get throughout the entire game. I frequently pay over 1000 gold (= 250 production) for builders in the late game because I believe they're worth more than what I pay for them. This means I get well over 50 builders in a typical game. Let's say the first 20 builders I get in a game have three charges each and the remaining 30 come with 5 charges each with the Serfdom policy. That's a total of 210 build charges that I can get with 7400 production ((50 + (50 + 4 * 49)) * (50 / 2); I'm ignoring benefits of policy cards and discounts from Monumentality). Obtaining the same number of build charges with the Pyramids would require only 42 builders (4 * 20 pre-Feudalism builders + 6 * 22 post-Feudalism builders = 212 charges), and one of these Igot for free from the Pyramids. That's 4494 production for the 42 builders minus 62 production for the fourth builder that I got for free, which equals 4432 production. Subtract another 60 production because of the monument-like benefits, and you've spent 4372 production for roughly the same number of charges as what you could normally obtain for 7400 production. The Pyramids let you save over 3000 production, and since they only cost 220 production to build, you're getting a return of over 13x throughout the course of the game. I conducted my calculations in terms of how much production each build charge costs, but the real value should be calculated based on how much value each build charge can be converted to, which, if you're playing the game correctly, should be significantly higher than what you're paying for it. For example, earlier, we assumed we could chop out the 220-production wonder with three charges, which must mean each charge is worth a lot more than the average 18 production we paid for it. When you take that into consideration, I think it's feasible that the ROI of Pyramids by the end of a typical game could easily be in excess of 25x.
 
The Great Bath is early unlocked and has few construction requirements,so it is usually built quickly.
But AI are stupid,if their city doesn't have a place where they can build it, they probably never will.
If only consider the practicality,I will choose Kilwa Kisiwani.
 
Pyramids.

No need to convince me, I agree. Problem is actually building them. AI likes them a lot. I haven't been able to build Pyramids in years, actual years that is when I played on a lower difficulty level. Perhaps if I beelined them I would have more of a chance, but I am usually focusing on expansion in this part of the game, usually forcible expansion. My last two games I've been lucky and my neighbor built them. Usually what happens is they are built on a different continent.
 
I suspect that the AI prioritizes the Great Bath because it's an early Dam that can protect your infrastructure, though it may overvalue it.

All things being equal, my one wonder would be the Forbidden Palace for the extra Wildcard slot.

Yes, the Forbidden City would be my first choice too, with Big Ben being a runner-up.
 
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If only consider the practicality,I will choose Kilwa Kisiwani.

Kilwa is usually excellent, but there are occasions when it's not that useful, e.g. you're going for a science victory but there's only 1 scientific city-state on the map. Similarly, the Colosseum is often great, but if your cities are spread out (on say an Archipelago map) you might not have a good spot for it. But I have a hard time thinking of a situation where the Pyramids or the Forbidden City wouldn't be useful.
 
I'm ignoring benefits of policy cards

This, though, kind of negates your arguments in favor of the Pyramids. An extra policy card that boosts production in a dozen or more cities over 100 or 200 turns could add up to a benefit of 10,000 cogs or more. On the other hand, by late game I've often got cities that have run out of just about every useful thing to make, so I set them to making builders, which they each can do in 1, 2, or maybe 3 turns. At this stage, then, the Pyramids would not really confer any kind of benefit.
 
Kilwa, even if you dont get 2x scientific city states it still pays off.
15% wide production, gold, faith or culture is still absolutely fantastic.
Since the AI takes the pyramids all the time, it made me start realize how non-essential that wonder really is.
Yes it pays off the production, but that's a prerequisite for building the wonder to begin with, not it's raison d'etre
 
If I could only pick one wonder, I would choose… oracle. It is great for heavy faith civs, which is how I like to play. Also, pairs well with the grants governor promotion. Kilwa would be a very close second that I believe is actually stronger but slightly less satisfying.

I don’t think pyramids are that good tbh. They don’t really do anything for me I can’t already do - buy or produce workers as needed.
 
This, though, kind of negates your arguments in favor of the Pyramids. An extra policy card that boosts production in a dozen or more cities over 100 or 200 turns could add up to a benefit of 10,000 cogs or more. On the other hand, by late game I've often got cities that have run out of just about every useful thing to make, so I set them to making builders, which they each can do in 1, 2, or maybe 3 turns. At this stage, then, the Pyramids would not really confer any kind of benefit.
I don't understand how you can argue that the Pyramids do not provide any benefit if your cities are able to produce builders quickly. In fact, the benefit is measurable in terms of production saved as I demonstrated.

In addition, I doubt you can benefit from Forbidden City for 200 turns in a typical game. A typical game, in my mind, ends by Turn 250 (Standard speed), and Printing isn't exactly easy to beeline. In fact, the only two reliable ways of gaining the Eureka for it is to build two universities (requires Education) and to obtain Great Engineer Bi Sheng (requires building industrial zones, and ergo unlocking Apprenticeship). It's hard enough to unlock Apprenticeship by Turn 50 (requires 444 science, including Mining, after hitting all relevent Eurekas). It costs an additional 675 science (including Masonry, after Eurekas) to unlock Printing. In that time, you'll also need to build at least one industrial zone and generate enough great engineer points to recruit Bi Sheng. Even if you could somehow unlock Printing by Turn 60, you still need to put 920 production toward the wonder itself. It would be an absolute feat if you could build Forbidden City by Turn 70. If you're at this pace, you probably won't need more than another 100 turns to win the game.

In a more reasonable scenario (one where a game takes 250 turns to complete), I think you'd probably clear Apprenticeship by Turn 80, Printing by Turn 100 and still require another 10 turns to build the wonder, so you'd be benefiting from an extra policy card for 140 turns. In addition, despite having to beeline Printing, if you were still somehow able to keep up with your culture yield and hit all relevant inspirations, by this point of the game, you might have cleared either Guilds or Medieval Faires and have adopted a second-tier government. Considering the 13x ROI of Pyramids I mentioned earlier, Forbidden City would need to bring in what's equal to roughly 10400 production over 140 turns (~74 production per turn). I'm assuming the 5 culture per turn it provides is equal to 120 production. I'm discounting it a bit because the you could conceivably build the Pyramids 50 turns before you can get Forbidden City. Obviously, there are some caveats like how much earlier the Pyramids starts to benefit the player (plausibly by Turn 60) and things like Monumentality discount, but we'll just ignore those here.

What policy card can you slot in at Turn 110 to gain even something like 50 production per turn? Keep in mind this is your marginal policy, meaning it'd be the best of the policies you'd choose not to implement without Forbidden City. I know this isn't an easy question to answer because policy benefits aren't always easy to convert to production, but let's try anyway. I imagine Republican Legacy would be a decent marginal policy candidate. On average, I wouldn't expect this card to produce more than 5% boost to yields, considering a difference of at least 2 amenities is required for a jump in happiness level. Let's say we have 10 cities by Turn 110, and each city yields 30 production per turn and 20 gold per turn. I feel 30 PPT per city is generous to assume at this stage of the game, but I'll allow it because we had to rush Apprenticeship and probably build a few industrial zones to then rush Printing and the wonder construction. 20 GPT * 10 cities - 50 GPT in maintenance should yield 150 GPT, which seems more than reasonable to me at this stage of the game, especially without prioritizing commercial hubs. The 5% bonus leads to an increase of 10 GPT to 160 GPT (= 200 * 1.05 - 50). We'll choose 3 gold to 1 production as the exchange rate. This should be on the favourable end, since usually, it costs 4x production to purchase something in gold. Between gold and production, we're getting roughly 18.5 equivalent production per turn (5% of 300 production + 3.5 converted from GPT). We're going to assume we're generating a negligible amount of faith because we shouldn't even have unlocked Astrology by this point. That means Republican Legacy must yield what's equivalent to 31.5 PPT in growth, science and culture. I understand growth is very important in this game, but we'll ignore it here because calculations become very complex when growth is involved. We just want to see if we're in the right ball park. Let's also assume we're generating 80 science and 80 culture per turn. Do these yields combine to at least equal 630 PPT (= 31.5 / 0.05)? I really doubt it. That's especially so when we introduce the concept of time value (e.g. $100 next year is worth $90 today if you can make $10 on the $90 in a year). I won't get into the details here, but because of the aggregation requirement of production (e.g. you don't get 1/6 of a monument this turn if your city yields 10 PPT; you have to wait 6 turns to get the whole thing), a set percentage increase in production is usually worth more than what you'd think.
 
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I don't understand how you can argue that the Pyramids do not provide any benefit if your cities are able to produce builders quickly. In fact, the benefit is measurable in terms of production saved as I demonstrated.

I'm talking about excess production by late game, especially when one is swimming in loads of cities. So, production capacity that one doesn't have any use for except to make builders and airlift them near to where they're needed. If one happens to possess the Pyramids wonder in such a scenario, it's just more excess, and hence of no value toward achieving whatever victory condition one is after. I play emperor level, so maybe this kind of thing rarely happens at higher levels.

Of course, there's the possibility that many of the "excess" cities were captured from an AI civ, and they can be in sorry shape. Land starved, only one district or no districts. They might take upwards of 10 turns to make a builder, but if they're needed for nothing else then I'll set them to that task and get a pipeline of builders flowing from four or five of such cities.
 
It would be an absolute feat if you could build Forbidden City by Turn 70. If you're at this pace, you probably won't need more than another 100 turns to win the game.

No, I think the problem is I'm far less competent a player than you. My games go to turn 350, roughly, as opposed to your 250. A big part of this is indeed my lack of experience, but a smaller part is that I like the world-building aspect. I work toward a well-rounded civilization even if it means the science victory will get pushed off by a few dozen turns. It's like creating a work of art for me. Also I'm just not as ruthless with AI opponents as I should be!

When I was playing Prince level I often stopped production on the Mars mission when it was just 2 turns from completion in order to go off and do some warring with old foes.
 
If one happens to possess the Pyramids wonder in such a scenario, it's just more excess, and hence of no value toward achieving whatever victory condition one is after.
Well, as an Ancient wonder, it's chugging out decent tourism for a Culture Victory. It's also boosting the Appeal of neighboring tiles for Neighborhoods, National Parks, Resorts, and anything else that benefits from Appeal, and it's potentially providing a Major Adjacency Bonus to a Theatre Square--so particularly for Culture Victory it's not doing nothing (though, granted, none of that is unique to the Pyramids specifically).
 
It's hard not argue that wonders which add bonus policy cards are top-tier.

I probably underestimate the Pyramids, given all that has been said here, but then again the AI will have masonry way before I do and build the wonder before I can spare the effort to push out the builder to give me three Magnus chops, so it's almost a moot point.
 
It's hard not argue that wonders which add bonus policy cards are top-tier.
Except the poor Alhambra. Never once have I thought to myself, "Man, I could really use another Military card slot." That's down to my playstyle, though. :p
 
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