Maybe it's a hint that Makeda is still planned as an alternate leader for Arabia? I do get the sneaking suspicion that we will get someone from the Arabian peninsula in either expack 3 or a leader pack. Either Sabaean representation, or Omani. Y'know, given that Saladin doesn't actually start in "Arabia."
Completely agree: this is what the semi-Fantasy Great Bath should have been. (Semi-Fantasy because, in fact, we have no idea what the 'Great Bath' structure looked like, but it certainly did not have 'onion domes' and it is most unlikely to have had anything to do with Flood Control - more likely it was a religious ablutions chamber)
I would be tempted to give The Great Dam the Great Bath's Flood Control effects, with possibly an added Food bonus to the affected tiles to emphasize that this was a major irrigation mechanism.
On a related note, I'd like to see the entire Irrigation Tech and mechanism in the game revised, with major bonuses to floodplain and river/lake/oasis-adjacent tiles from Irrigation Improvements, more when combined with an (Irrigation) Dam like Mar'ib, and able to affect tiles away from the water source with Modern/Atomic Era technology. I'd also tie it in with changing the Aqueduct to an Improvement that can run for several tiles, adding an Irrigation Bonus to the tiles it runs through. That would combine the effects of the very early Irrigation canal and/or qanat systems with the water provisions to cities. Right now, Irrigation in the game is just the title of a tech with nothing like its historical importance to the politics, food supply, labor force and technical development of the Civs that used it extensively.
Maybe it's a hint that Makeda is still planned as an alternate leader for Arabia? I do get the sneaking suspicion that we will get someone from the Arabian peninsula in either expack 3 or a leader pack. Either Sabaean representation, or Omani. Y'know, given that Saladin doesn't actually start in "Arabia."
While it's never safe to try to second-guess Firaxis, especially in Civ VI with regard to Leaders that can, apparently, now include the Legendary (Kupe) and the Semi-Legendary (Gilgamesh) and the Non-Leader (Eleanor), I suspect anything from the 'Arabian Peninsula' will actually be from one of the Arab/Islamic Caliphates centered a little further north, in Damascus or Baghdad. As Alternate Leader(s) for 'Arabia' there's the advantage that there are numerous candidates, including both men and women, military and cultural/scientific (al-Rashid).
On the other hand, since they've included a Fantasy Wonder (Great Bath) and the kind of Leaders I indicated above, there's probably nothing to stop them from including the Land of Punt with Sheba as Leader and placing it in the Arabian Peninsula with the Mar'ib Dam!
suspect anything from the 'Arabian Peninsula' will actually be from one of the Arab/Islamic Caliphates centered a little further north, in Damascus or Baghdad. As Alternate Leader(s) for 'Arabia' there's the advantage that there are numerous candidates, including both men and women, military and cultural/scientific (al-Rashid).
While it's never safe to try to second-guess Firaxis, especially in Civ VI with regard to Leaders that can, apparently, now include the Legendary (Kupe) and the Semi-Legendary (Gilgamesh) and the Non-Leader (Eleanor), I suspect anything from the 'Arabian Peninsula' will actually be from one of the Arab/Islamic Caliphates centered a little further north, in Damascus or Baghdad. As Alternate Leader(s) for 'Arabia' there's the advantage that there are numerous candidates, including both men and women, military and cultural/scientific (al-Rashid).
On the other hand, since they've included a Fantasy Wonder (Great Bath) and the kind of Leaders I indicated above, there's probably nothing to stop them from including the Land of Punt with Sheba as Leader and placing it in the Arabian Peninsula with the Mar'ib Dam!
There's some artistic license involved, definitely. I wouldn't decline representation from another caliphate, but I think it quite likely if the devs can find a reasonable candidate who isn't a bearded turban dude as an alternate leader for Arabia, they will likely choose that over even the most important caliph. Makeda has just a tad more going for her in not only would she be on the Arabian peninsula, but occupying Yemen which otherwise would never see any sort of representation. She represents, I think, about the furthest extent they could stretch the concept of "Arabia," which--looking at Chandragupta and Eleanor--makes me believe that the devs would at least be considering it given how distinct and diverse they want to make the cast.
I would also like Atikah Bin Yazid, since she was alive for most of the Umayyad caliphate and would be a nice culture-focused counterpart to Saladin. But I admit there's not much to go off of and she would be stretching as a "leader." But, again, Eleanor.
I would rather we clearly separate "Arabia" and the western "Arabian" caliphates, given that for centuries they were quite separate and developed very differently. A Berber caliph for a "Morocco" civ would be most satisfying to me, casting as wide a representational net as possible to reflect how multicultural the region is.
Although now as I am typing this out, I am seeing fewer differences between my case for Morocco and many others' case for Byzantium. Maybe we could just end up seeing a "West Arabia" second leader and be done with it. Hm.
I would rather we clearly separate "Arabia" and the western "Arabian" caliphates, given that for centuries they were quite separate and developed very differently. A Berber caliph for a "Morocco" civ would be most satisfying to me, casting as wide a representational net as possible to reflect how multicultural the region is.
A good case could be made for the Andalusian/Grenada/Moorish State being a Scientific-oriented state with more historical justification than Korea . . .
There's some artistic license involved, definitely. I wouldn't decline representation from another caliphate, but I think it quite likely if the devs can find a reasonable candidate who isn't a bearded turban dude as an alternate leader for Arabia, they will likely choose that over even the most important caliph. Makeda has just a tad more going for her in not only would she be on the Arabian peninsula, but occupying Yemen which otherwise would never see any sort of representation. She represents, I think, about the furthest extent they could stretch the concept of "Arabia," which--looking at Chandragupta and Eleanor--makes me believe that the devs would at least be considering it given how distinct and diverse they want to make the cast.
I was going to ask what language she'd speak, but I guess the obvious answer is Mehri, even though the Modern South Arabian languages are not directly related to the Old South Arabian languages. I'd love to see a Sabaean civ, but I'm a little uncomfortable with it being folded into Arabia since the Old South Arabians were not Arabs and because the hyper-religious sort-of-science Arabian civ as it exists now would reflect them very poorly. The Sabaeans should be more luxury trade since their entire civilization was built around the trade of frankincense, myrrh, and mastic.
I was going to ask what language she'd speak, but I guess the obvious answer is Mehri, even though the Modern South Arabian languages are not directly related to the Old South Arabian languages. I'd love to see a Sabaean civ, but I'm a little uncomfortable with it being folded into Arabia since the Old South Arabians were not Arabs and because the hyper-religious sort-of-science Arabian civ as it exists now would reflect them very poorly. The Sabaeans should be more luxury trade since their entire civilization was built around the trade of frankincense, myrrh, and mastic.
The extent of trade across and through the Arabian Peninsula before the Islamic revolution is generally under appreciated by both historians and the public. Egypt, Rome and Greece all have records of extensive trade routes up and down the Red Sea and across the peninsula, and subsequent history makes it easy to forget that Mecca and Medina were both trading cities before they became religious ones.
And in addition to the 'resources' originating in Arabia, they were middle-men for ivory from the African coast and spices from India - the Monsoon/Trade Winds to and from India and the southern Arabian/Somali coast tip of the Red Sea were being exploited by Greek traders right after Alexander's time, and the Romans later.
The only problem with a fat Trading Civ based on one of the Arabian pre- or post-Islamic states is that right now, without an Economic Victory, a mass of Gold has to be translated into the mass of units, buildings, or Districts required for Domination, Scientific, Culture, or Religious Victory at some point - Gold itself just doesn't directly translate into a Victory type.
Now, if the game would add a Bribery mechanic to Diplomacy, a Gold-rich Civ would have a nice inside track to the Diplomatic Victory. Not for nothing did the Greeks say that the most dangerous Persian archer was the one depicted on Darius' gold coins - the 'Darics' with which he bribed politicians all over Greece!
Yeah, that's basically Mali's problem (aside from Musa's being needlessly creepy): they have lots of gold but are ill-suited to any victory condition. Assuming Sabaea didn't get Mali's production malus, their wealth could set them up for a Culture or Science Victory, though.
I was going to ask what language she'd speak, but I guess the obvious answer is Mehri, even though the Modern South Arabian languages are not directly related to the Old South Arabian languages. I'd love to see a Sabaean civ, but I'm a little uncomfortable with it being folded into Arabia since the Old South Arabians were not Arabs and because the hyper-religious sort-of-science Arabian civ as it exists now would reflect them very poorly. The Sabaeans should be more luxury trade since their entire civilization was built around the trade of frankincense, myrrh, and mastic.
Oh yeah I'm not totally convinced of "Makeda leads Arabia," illustratively because she might be called Bilqis instead. The whole Sabaean mythos seems to be largely an Ethiopian thing, which makes me rather have an Aksumite king lead Ethiopia to get token Yemeni representation, rather than throwing out effectively a fictionalized Biblical/Quranic character and stretching it to fit Arabia.
Yeah, that's basically Mali's problem (aside from Musa's being needlessly creepy): they have lots of gold but are ill-suited to any victory condition. Assuming Sabaea didn't get Mali's production malus, their wealth could set them up for a Culture or Science Victory, though.
I actually like the idea of Mali, giving players "handicapped' or "inefficiently specialized" create to offer more challenge. Granted, this may not matter in Mali's case if we get an economic victory.
Yeah, that's basically Mali's problem (aside from Musa's being needlessly creepy): they have lots of gold but are ill-suited to any victory condition. Assuming Sabaea didn't get Mali's production malus, their wealth could set them up for a Culture or Science Victory, though.
It's not a problem. Having lots of gold and faith, plus the extra anything from bonus trade routes, suits them to most victory conditions. Why do you think otherwise?
There's more to being suited to a victory condition than having bonuses from special buildings or tile improvements.
It's not a problem. Having lots of gold and faith, plus the extra anything from bonus trade routes, suits them to most victory conditions. Why do you think otherwise?
Because I abandoned my Mali game when it stretched long past the point I would have won with any other civ even in a victory condition it wasn't suited for because I had coffers full of gold but not victory was in sight. Maybe I could have spammed troops and won a conquest victory, but that doesn't interest me. Science is obviously off the table because of the production handicap, and I simply couldn't build enough wonders or Great Work-housing buildings to make a culture victory viable. I was actually aiming for a diplomatic victory, but the game wasn't being very cooperative (no one was having emergencies).
True, and I love asymmetric civilizations generally speaking, but Mali's handicaps simply outweigh its advantages IMO. It's best suited for the two most boring victory conditions: Supremacy and Religion. It can be well positioned for a Diplomatic Victory if other players actually have emergencies (which they didn't in my game). Culture and Science are just a chore with Mali because they not only have no benefits but have active hindrances to those victories. The Maori are a good example of how to give a civilization pros and cons; the Mali are a very bad example.
(There is one benefit to playing as Mali, though: you don't have to hear Musa's creepy laugh. )
Because I abandoned my Mali game when it stretched long past the point I would have won with any other civ even in a victory condition it wasn't suited for because I had coffers full of gold but not victory was in sight. Maybe I could have spammed troops and won a conquest victory, but that doesn't interest me. Science is obviously off the table because of the production handicap, and I simply couldn't build enough wonders or Great Work-housing buildings to make a culture victory viable. I was actually aiming for a diplomatic victory, but the game wasn't being very cooperative (no one was having emergencies).
I don't follow you. There's no production malus for districts or projects, so I don't know why you'd take scientific victory off the table. The production malus to mines should hardly be a factor once you're at this stage of the game. You can certainly have 100< production cities with Mali. Alliances + Wisselbanken + Democracy = as many gears as you please for your spaceport city.
No malus to building wonders either, but the tourism from wonders has never been a make-or-break factor. No real handicap to competing in CV as far as I could tell. Don't forget sugubas give their 20% discount to faith purchases as well, so cheaper rock bands and national parks.
Of course, religious victory is certainly facilitated by the suguba discount, given that this is just largely a matter of spamming apostles.
I don't follow you. There's no production malus for districts or projects, so I don't know why you'd take scientific victory off the table. The production malus to mines should hardly be a factor once you're at this stage of the game.
It is if you build literally every wonder you can get your hands on. I routinely win CVs with few great works, no resorts, and one or two National Parks based chiefly on wonders.
All I know is that the one game I played as them very quickly became tedious. Again, this was shortly after release; I seem to recall Mali getting some buffs in subsequent patches. Also based on the build times in your screenshot I'm guessing you play on Standard; I always play on Epic.
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I routinely win CVs with few great works, no resorts, and one or two National Parks based chiefly on wonders.
