Great Diplomats, AI and Paper

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by civplayer33, Jan 18, 2019.

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What do you think of the proposed change (Paper increases only on expending the GD for Influence)?

Poll closed Mar 19, 2019.
  1. OK / Good

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  2. Opposed, instead we should tweak the AI to value Embassies more

    9 vote(s)
    47.4%
  3. Opposed, everything is fine now, nothing needs to change

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  4. Opposed, we should do something completely different (elaborate below please)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    This has been discussed a few times, I believe, but not very fruitfully IMO.

    The issue: the AI still overvalues using Great Diplomats for Influence.

    In my current game I have managed to create 7 City State Embassies so far (late Modern), making up a third of my World Council votes (and I'm the "vote leader" with statecraft, a religion, play as Germany, have CS allies, am the host, so it's not like I neglected other ways to get votes, though Siam sniped Big Ben).
    The AI civs have either none or one Embassy per civ (most AI civs have 1). Despite one civ already having entered Atomic and me playing with EEVP (=more time to plant Embassies) there are still two CS with available Embassy spots and I could liberate about 4 more to plant Embassies there as well.

    This is going to make Diplomatic Victory a lot easier for me than it should be; Siam told me twice now that it plans to win Diplo Victory (hilariously telling me that he is writing his World Leader acceptance speech, very cute) and he is very competitive with CS alliances and rushed Big Ben, but does not prioritize CS Embassies at all, having only planted one.

    The solution (?): Optimally the AI should "simply" get smarter about long term thinking (not Skynet level smart, though), but since this is probably not gonna happen, either the AI valuation of CS Embassies should be increased, or

    Proposal: expending the Great Diplomat only increases available Paper when he is expended for Influence, not on planting CS Embassies.
    (FYI you currently get 1 Paper resource permanently when you expend a GD, no matter which way you expend him).

    This would force the player to plant less CS Embassies, since otherwise the amount of available Paper would be too low, thus increasing the chances the AI gets at planting their own CS Embassies. It would also reduce the ability of a player, who is very focused on planting CS Embassies, to generate regular diplomatic units, at least in a short time frame, which seems like a decent trade off.

    Other considerations:
    • Teaching the AI about this is probably very hard, so making the stakes higher than they are is risky.
    • Embassies can be pillaged if the CS is conquered, erasing any benefit the GD had if this change were implemented; quite a dramatic loss.
    • If the AI starts to value CS Embassies a lot more, the above mechanism (conquering a CS and removing the Embassy improvement in case the CS is liberated later) would be somewhat exploitable by the player.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Is this true? AI using great diplomats makes it almost impossible to snatch a city state from it. Sure, I get more delegates with so many embassies, but somehow, AI going for diplomatic victory still manages to have high number of delegates just by alliances.
     
  3. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I suppose other people should comment since I obviously think it's true, but it's not just my current game that gives me this impression; I've observed this in pretty much every game so far (from the perspective of my valuation of CS Embassies, of course).

    CS alliance are rather easy to break anyway...just stage a coup, rig elections or Decolonize in the World Council (or send diplo units, of course).
     
  4. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I wonder if civs using Great Diplomats for influence is due to difficulty. I recall lower difficulties sees AIs picking the less optimal choice at times. Lately, I played on Standard Speed with King and I got a bunch of Embassies that I think would be impossible on higher difficulties. Of course, there's also a possibility that higher difficulties AI might also get more Great Diplomats so they are able to get Embassies and influence at the same time. These are just a few things that comes to my mind when you speak of Great Diplomat used for influence.
     
  5. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Creating an embassy is the ultimate in long-term planning. There's zero benefit to the civ over expending for influence until Printing Press. Maybe this is part of long-term impact that the AI doesn't know how to handle?

    I don't find Great Diplomats' influence ability to be very impactful, at least the way the AI uses them. The AI seems to try to use them to go from neutral to allied, but in many cases, the allied person has enough influence that the alliance doesn't change. Really the only use I find for it is to cement an alliance that you're having a hard time keeping control of.

    In the early game, a great diplomat is worth roughly 60 turns of alliance.
     
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  6. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The fun part about embassies is that you can snatch an embassy from a city-state and plant your own with a citadel(or America) to snatch the embassy's land.
     
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  7. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    True, but I've never seen the AI do it. Does the AI even know that doing this would deprive another civ of one Delegate?
     
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  8. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    I've seen Rome snatch *HIS OWN* embassy from a CS with a citadel (there was no other resource that the citadel acquired), so it does happen, although I found it odd that Rome would snatch their own embassy lol, it was 4 tiles away from the city tile so I don't think that city would even get the yields from the embassy, unless AI cities can work tiles further than 3?
     
  9. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    :hammer2:

    Thanks for pointing it out; I've had a suspicion based on other cases that the AI doesn't think about whether a tile is within working range when it evaluates whether to grab it (see here). Would be a decent argument for making the AI understand the importance of existing CS Embassies (not just the importance of possible future ones, which may be the only way the AI can currently think about CS Embassies).
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It does, but it also thinks about what the other party loses as well.

    The CS target for a citadel is a new one, but one example does not a bug make.

    G
     
  11. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I've seen this before and it's hilarious. I'm also going to agree that, most games, the AI doesn't prioritize embassies. It's been like this since I can remember.

    *Edit: I should add that it wasn't necessarily a bug, just a casualty of the AI grabbing another luxury. Also, I actually have seen improvements with AI embassy prioritization over the last few months, but it still occurs in most games.
     
  12. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    Don't bother with CS. Will not be enough in 43 game anyway and you will not be able to anyways to as the competition is extreme.

    Make vassals=Win
     
  13. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    That's not funny it is a glitch. You should report it to GitHub
     
  14. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Dude...when are you going to learn that most people here don't play or even care much for 43 civ?

    This thread is for discussing VP balance for normal games, not edge cases and special scenarios.
    And besides, if you think that CS don't matter why are you posting in this topic to begin with?
     
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  15. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    43 has been supported with every patch. Don't you think that this is enough evidence that you are wrong claiming that nobody cares about 43 ?
     
  16. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Frankly I don't care whether anyone cares about 43 civ.

    What I do care about is this thread being used to discuss the topic at hand.
     
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  17. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    If you play 43 games your horizon can only expand. If you interpret everything in only 8 dimensions you will not be able to see beyond.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You are very weird. This may come as a shock to you, but no one else cares that you like 43 civs. I'm so glad you do, but it's not the standard for the game. Stick to the topic.

    G
     
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  19. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    no it's not
     
  20. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    It looks pretty standard to me. It starts in the ancient era and it finishes in the Information era.
     

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