Great Entertainers

[Thormodr]

This idea is fatally flawed as there is no...

Elvis!!!

How could Elvis not be a great entertainer??? Even just in speculation.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This idea is fatally flawed as there is no...

Elvis!!!

How could Elvis not be a great entertainer??? Even just in speculation.

Instantly turns into a Rock Band with maybe 2 promotions?

 

[Evie]

Frankly if the cultural building progressions was Library-Café-Museum, I would find it very appropriate (and non-playwright writers could stay on that side then). Have something like an Academy representing early educational institutions replace the library in science. Theater can take its proper place as Amphitheater in the entertainment district as the first tier building, Opera House sweeping in at tier 2, Zoo can be moved to third tier as one entertainment option along with stadium (less great people point, but more amenities or some such), and the broadcast centre.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Frankly if the cultural building progressions was Library-Café-Museum, I would find it very appropriate (and non-playwright writers could stay on that side then). Have something like an Academy representing early educational institutions replace the library in science. Theater can take its proper place as Amphitheater in the entertainment district as the first tier building, Opera House sweeping in at tier 2, Zoo can be moved to third tier as one entertainment option along with stadium (less great people point, but more amenities or some such), and the broadcast centre.

I like the idea of having an Academy in a campus district, instead of the Library.

I think the Zoo could stay at tier two and be a scientific/entertainment counterpart to a cultural/entertainment Opera House.

 

[Zaarin]

Frankly if the cultural building progressions was Library-Café-Museum, I would find it very appropriate (and non-playwright writers could stay on that side then).

I like it. I'm also now envisioning either Japan or China getting a unique Teahouse. We could also give the Ottomans a unique Kahvehane to show the Ottomans' more cultural side.

 

[Evie]

If that were to happen I could see Great Writers moving away from the "great works" mechanics (keep that to great artists) and being more of a mix of culture bombing-esque and culture boosting mechanics (for the more fictiony writers) and civic research (for more non fictiony writers, as a counterpart to great scientists).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If that were to happen I could see Great Writers moving away from the "great works" mechanics (keep that to great artists) and being more of a mix of culture bombing-esque and culture boosting mechanics (for the more fictiony writers) and civic research (for more non fictiony writers, as a counterpart to great scientists).

I'd also love to add the ability for Great Musicians to be able to perform at places such as Opera Houses, Stadiums, or Cafés for boosts of culture, amenities and tourism.

 

[Evie]

Honestly if we're going with the reclassified buildings I proposed (opera and broadcast centre moving to entertainment district), I would expect great musicians and entertainers to be integrated and work the amenities side. Even classical musicians in their way: they didn't do it rock star style, but religious hymns and the sponsoring of opera play into the amenities side too.

Artist I see getting points from monuments (and possibly a few more city centre buildings to be added), palaces, government districts, and, once you earn a great prophet/they're all taken, great prophet points convert to great artist. Demonstrate well their ties to politic and religion without interfering with other great people.

In that case the museum might actually want to be a city centre building (fits what I have in mind for it better, too), with culture possibly integrating a new building - a printing-related building rather leap to mind, or possibly a newspaper. Might have to fiddle with the time periods, though, as newspapers and cafés are largely contemporaries, and printing press not far from. A late ancient - late medieval - early industrial progression should be doable.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Honestly if we're going with the reclassified buildings I proposed (opera and broadcast centre moving to entertainment district), I would expect great musicians and entertainers to be integrated and work the amenities side. Even classical musicians in their way: they didn't do it rock star style, but religious hymns and the sponsoring of opera play into the amenities side too.

I was thinking maybe Great Musicians have their own style, like art currently has religious, sculpture, landscape etc. Classical Musicians can perform at Opera Houses, while Modern day Musicians can perform at large venues like Stadiums.

In that case the museum might actually want to be a city centre building (fits what I have in mind for it better, too), with culture possibly integrating a new building - a printing-related building rather leap to mind, or possibly a newspaper. Might have to fiddle with the time periods, though, as newspapers and cafés are largely contemporaries, and printing press not far from. A late ancient - late medieval - early industrial progression should be doable.

Cafés could be a Medieval building, if we base them off of the original coffeehouses in the Islamic world.

 

[kaspergm]

I was thinking maybe Great Musicians have their own style, like art currently has religious, sculpture, landscape etc. Classical Musicians can perform at Opera Houses, while Modern day Musicians can perform at large venues like Stadiums.

Yeah, great writings cold also come in different styles: Not only novels, poetry and dramas/plays, but also there could be great scientific writings making a(nother) bridge between science and culture in the game, and could be hosted in libraries and universities.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah, great writings cold also come in different styles: Not only novels, poetry and dramas/plays, but also there could be great scientific writings making a(nother) bridge between science and culture in the game, and could be hosted in libraries and universities.

Yeah novels would be great to be housed at libraries, while dramas could be performed at theaters, and even poetry at cafés.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah, great writings cold also come in different styles: Not only novels, poetry and dramas/plays, but also there could be great scientific writings making a(nother) bridge between science and culture in the game, and could be hosted in libraries and universities.

Once you start separating Great Writers by Content there's no stopping . . .
You have important political writing like Tom Paine's Rights of Man and Common Sense, that influenced British politics, and both the American and French revolutions.
You have influential historical non and semi-fiction like Herodotus and Gibbon's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire that had enormous influence on how history of civs was understood and written for centuries after they wrote.
Almost every scientist promulgated his findings by writing them down, so almost all (especially post-Classical) Great Scientists are, in some way, also Great Writers.

That could result in Great Writer being almost a meaningless term, since the precise definition and effects of the game piece would depend so much on What they wrote rather than the fact that they were writing.

And, just to ring in a concept from over in the Resources thread, All writing, and especially the effects of non-fiction technical and scientific writing, is greatly enhanced by better methods of spreading copies of the writing around: paper, papyrus, Libraries, Scriptoria, Universities, Printing, Internet - any or all of those can magnify the effects of any writing by orders of magnitude, and should all have especial effect on non-fiction - in the first century after the moveable type printing press became common in Europe, 90% of the titles published were non-fiction technical or 'How-to' books spreading practical information on everything from mining to carpentry to agriculture - all fiction and religious texts published were a relative minority of the books in print, and that had a Huge influence on events.

 

[Zaarin]

Cafés could be a Medieval building, if we base them off of the original coffeehouses in the Islamic world.

Coffeehouses started in the mid-to-late fifteenth century so that's the very tail end of the Middle Ages.

even poetry at cafés.

*Beatnik snapping intensifies*

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

*Beatnik snapping intensifies*

Now I'm imagining Great Writers with poetry having a "poetry slam" combat, similar to theological combat but whacking each other with their poetry rather than summoning lightning strikes.

 

[kaspergm]

Once you start separating Great Writers by Content there's no stopping . . .
You have important political writing like Tom Paine's Rights of Man and Common Sense, that influenced British politics, and both the American and French revolutions.
You have influential historical non and semi-fiction like Herodotus and Gibbon's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire that had enormous influence on how history of civs was understood and written for centuries after they wrote.
Almost every scientist promulgated his findings by writing them down, so almost all (especially post-Classical) Great Scientists are, in some way, also Great Writers.

That could result in Great Writer being almost a meaningless term, since the precise definition and effects of the game piece would depend so much on What they wrote rather than the fact that they were writing.

I half agree with what you say here - but I don't necessarily think that every great scientists should produce a "great work". But there are some pretty obvious examples: Isaac Newton's "Principia", or Nicolaus Copernicus' "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" or Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" are all notable examples of works that both can be considered scientific breakthroughs, but at the same time cultural works in their own right.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I half agree with what you say here - but I don't necessarily think that every great scientists should produce a "great work". But there are some pretty obvious examples: Isaac Newton's "Principia", or Nicolaus Copernicus' "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" or Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" are all notable examples of works that both can be considered scientific breakthroughs, but at the same time cultural works in their own right.

Agree, not all Great Scientists were/are Great Writers - or even coherent writers, in my academic experience.
Question is, then, is a Great Scientist who also produces a Great Work of writing Extra Great? Does the Great Work of (Science) Writing take on a 'life' of its own as a Great Work in a University or Wonder like the Mouseion [Great Library])? (which, in fact, would be a good way to use them)

But bear in mind, there could potentially be a lot of Great Scientific Works:
Eukleides' Elementae (Euclid's Geometry) - which probably spawned as many commentaries and attendant works as any piece of non-religious writing in history.
Dioscorides' Peri Hules Latrikes (De Materia Medica) - the first great (5 volume) pharmacopeia
Klaudios Ptolemaios' Almagest - the 'standard work' on astronomy for 1500 years
al-Zahrawi's Kitab-al-Tasrif - the standard reference on surgery for almost 500 years
Leonardo Bonacci's Liber Abaci - that introduced "Arabic" (Hindu) numbers to Europeans
Nikolaus Copernicus' De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium - that revolutionized astronomy
Carl Linnaeus' Systema Naturae - which started modern taxonomy

Most of these are by no means great pieces of writing in themselves, but they introduced or spread basic scientific discoveries and new 'technologies' widely by their existence, and, I think, would thereby fulfill the use in-game of a Great Scientific Work of writing.

 

[kaspergm]

Question is, then, is a Great Scientist who also produces a Great Work of writing Extra Great?

Would/could it not just be a part of their effect, similar to how Sun Tzu creats a great writing or Jeanne D'Arc creates a relic on activation?

 

[Evie]

The way I see it, the Great Artists would be the only ones to retain "creating great works" as their main ability. The idea of "storing" music or even books in specific locations, even if it can be justified, stretches suspension of disbelief, and as I already noted, and honestly, the "create great work" mechanism result in boring great people who are only different because of the jpeg that gets displayed or the soundbite that gets played. I think they still make sense for great artists, but expanding the concept beyond that doesn't strike me as reasonable.

Entertainers and writers should follow the scientists, generals et al in having unique abilities. Naming those abilities (ala the Great Heroes) to reflect their actual works would be cool, but creating a Great Work that has to be displayed doesn't make so much sense.

So there wouldn't be much point sorting writers and entertainers based on their types of work. Besides which, the reason behind it is hardly compelling: Mozart would certainly have played to stadium crowds had stadium and the sound engineering technology to make stadium shows work existed in his days (Pavarotti has certainly performed famous opera songs in stadium in more recent times), while at the other end, the Beatles, Stones and similar bands have most certainly performed in Concert Halls and similar venues.

I do think great people beside the great artists should have a link to the great-work-artifact-relic category of items, but I'm thinking that link should be more akin to the heroic relics from hero modes: when a great person dies (eg, is used up), you get a relic/artifact that represent a physical object linked to their history. In some case it could be a physical object that represent or relate to their artistic creation (an ancient manuscript of their work, a first printing, a handwritten score), but it would not be limited to that even for writers and entertainers.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I do think great people beside the great artists should have a link to the great-work-artifact-relic category of items, but I'm thinking that link should be more akin to the heroic relics from hero modes: when a great person dies (eg, is used up), you get a relic/artifact that represent a physical object linked to their history. In some case it could be a physical object that represent or relate to their artistic creation (an ancient manuscript of their work, a first printing, a handwritten score), but it would not be limited to that even for writers and entertainers.

I do think a happy medium would be that whenever a Great Writer or Musician is used up by some ability, it would end up leaving behind one of their Great works in an appropriate Great work slot in a building.

On that note I do think that Great Engineers, and maybe Great Scientists, could create Great works called inventions, but that's probably best saved for a separate topic.

 

[Evie]

I'd really rather they leave a tangible artifact representative of themselves or their works, rather than leaving a song that has to be exhibited or something of the sort which still ends up feeling weird.

In general, except for great artists, I would just move away from the idea of Great Works altogether - a great person's great work(s) is(are) represented by their active ability. The artifact they leave behind when they retire is the thing they go see or treasure in that great person's memory.

Which is also why I've been leaning toward talking of Artifacts, not Great Works - part of thinking of expanding the Great Work/Relic/Archaeological Artifact system to cover more of the game without having the nonsense of displaying a song. They'd replace and incorporate all those systems, using different sub-types (kind of like portraits/landscapes/religious/statues, but on a broader scale: Natural artifacts, Technological ones, Artistic, Religious, Historical, Military, etc. A museum (there is only one museum building you could build) could then specialize by displaying four (or however many slots they have) artifacts of the same category, granting a bonus reflecting the kind of artifact they have (Nature = Science, History = Culture, Religion = Faith, Technology -= Production, etc).