Great Entertainers

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd really rather they leave a tangible artifact representative of themselves or their works, rather than leaving a song that has to be exhibited or something of the sort which still ends up feeling weird.

In general, except for great artists, I would just move away from the idea of Great Works altogether - a great person's great work(s) is(are) represented by their active ability. The artifact they leave behind when they retire is the thing they go see or treasure in that great person's memory.

I understand what you are trying to say. However in my mind most of the legacy that musicians leave behind is their work, such as Beethoven's Symphony No.9.

In the case of William Shakespeare, let him have an ability where he can build a free theater building and add extra amenities and culture to every theater. Whenever he is used up then he can leave behind either Romeo and Juliet or Hamlet as his "artifact", which those are what he is known for.

 

[Evie]

And still, the idea of R&J being this unique artifact that can only exist in one location when the whole point of books and plays and music is their near-infinite reproducibility and the fact that they can be performed and read (and in later days, listened to) anywhere remains a dealbreaker for me. We're shoehorning books and plays and songs in a system that was clearly invented for artist and forced on writers/musicians, at the cost of suspension of disbelief.

I could see the Ninth Symphony Manuscript (Berlin library has it) being Beethoven's historical artifact, the thing he leaves behind. An original first folio (there were a few of those, but they're rare enough to work) for Shakespeare (and covers most of his plays rather than randomly chose one). Something reasonably rare or unique that can be displayed. But other great writers/musicians could leave other testimonials, not necessarily always a draft or manuscript of their work.

Again, the Great Work, what they're really famous for, should be their active ability. Not the relic they leave behind when they die.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And still, the idea of R&J being this unique artifact that can only exist in one location when the whole point of books and plays and music is their near-infinite reproducibility and the fact that they can be performed and read (and in later days, listened to) anywhere remains a dealbreaker for me. We're shoehorning books and plays and songs in a system that was clearly invented for artist and forced on writers/musicians, at the cost of suspension of disbelief.

I mean I've always seen the Great Works as sort of an abstraction of what they are reall ydoing, at least writing and music. When you "house" writing in an ampitheater I don't see it being just stored there, but actively being performed at that theater as a running show. Same goes for music being in "housed" in the broadcast center, which I just see it being played over the radio. Of course, you can also move them around freely too which is why I don't mind the same thing happening for an Opera House building where you can choose what play and music would be performed.

Sure storing them in the Great Library, or regular libraries in general, might be different but I just consider that to house the original pieces of work. Something that could change the way of reproducing more of the same work could be a thing that happens whenever you discover Printing. Whether that's through a special project, or a building I'm not sure.

 

[Evie]

I mean, yeah, you can rationalize it away - but the bottom line always seem to come down to the fact that we're trying to fit square pegs (literature, theatre and music) into round holes (a great work system that was clearly designed for artists and museums in the first place).

Far better in my opinion to design writers and musicians/entertainers, who aren'T the same thing as visual artists, as their own type of great people from the ground up than to cling to fitting them into a model that was never made for them. And that means moving away from the Great Works model.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean, yeah, you can rationalize it away - but the bottom line always seem to come down to the fact that we're trying to fit square pegs (literature, theatre and music) into round holes (a great work system that was clearly designed for artists and museums in the first place).

Far better in my opinion to design writers and musicians/entertainers, who aren'T the same thing as visual artists, as their own type of great people from the ground up than to cling to fitting them into a model that was never made for them. And that means moving away from the Great Works model.

I agree with you on that part in which they don't have to solely exist for the creation of great works. But if you put in the whole notion of leaving behind an artifact when they disappear, which is to be displayed either in a museum or another building, I don't really think that's necessary leaving behind the Great Work model for them.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

The all great works as great works of art conflation has bothered me as well. I sort of rationalized music as premieres, but it is especially strange when you create numerous great works in quick succession, as when several slots become available. For art, it's like the equivalent of plunder or collecting (plausible). But for music and writing...is the capital some publishing house? What happens when the great works are dispersed?

Sui Generis has one partial answer to this: modding in slots for great works of writing in research buildings for East Asian cultures. If that were to be generalized, it would help with the idea of repositories of writing. Still, the concept that writing and music should yield local culture or tourism is a bit baffling. I would prefer if writers and musicians provided a burst of culture to their civilization and a lesser bump to the rest of the world, amplified by printing press, mass media, etc.

Also, when tying entertainers to amenities, I seem to recall the evolution from health/happiness to local/global health to housing/amenities.

 

[Evie]

That's the thing though. We do keep around in museums artifacts related to famous figures. Not abstract great works; actual physical artifacts, much more like the ones archaeologists dig up (in civ 6) than the ones artists produce. We have world-touring exhibits and even specialized museums (often their old houses) dedicated to those figures and the artifacts of their lives and works. Exhibiting those things make perfect sense (or in some case, would make perfect sense if doing so wasn't potentially lethal, like Marie Curie's research papers that have to be kept in lead and examined in protective equipment)l

As I said, the inspiration is the relics heroes (or martyr religious units) leave behind - it's not the point of the hero, nor the part of their life they're most famed for. That's what I'm envisioning them as - more as (non-religious) relics than great works.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But they're not the great work themselves. As I said, the inspiration is the relics heroes (or martyr religious units) leave behind - it's not the point of the hero, nor the part of their life they're most famed for. That's what I'm envisioning them as - more like (non-religious) relics than great works.

I think that's the confusing part because in the game relics, artifacts, heroic relics, and corporation products are still displayed on the Great Works screen and are still by definition considered Great Works, according to the game.
https://civilization.fandom.com/wik...rks Building /,Works of Art 22 more rows

 

[Evie]

But they (can, and in at least some of those cases, do) function differently in terms of bonuses and are obtained and represent different things from Great Works of Arts/Music/Writing.

The fact that the game still call the panel and overall category Great Works rather than Artifacts or a more generic term ("treasures" or whatever) despite the fact that it hasn't been limited to Great Works since...release, actually is a mark of lazy labeling by Firaxis, nothing more.

 

[Minou]

To reiterate, my main reasons for wanting Great Entertainers are (1) I just can't stand that those are the only speciality districts that don't great GP points and (2) I feel there are too few ways to get cities to Happy/Ecstatic.

Currently, Entertainment Complexes are way too weak. It costs a ton of production to an EC plus an Arena, and then you end up with 3 Amenities which is less than just using one Builder charge to hook up any random luxury. Besides, it is almost impossible to get cities to Ecstatic unless you want to keep your empire very small, so you basically have no incentive to ever build any except for Colosseum. If they gave Great People who helped with happiness, it would kill two birds with one stone in my book.

I doubt they will ever appear since Fireaxis seems to have stopped working on the game.

 

[Victoria]

I have walked into a few empty large venues and never been entertained by the building although I have appreciated the culture value. With this in mind I would say that the amenity comes off the entertainer not the venue.
So let’s take Elvis, while he is living and playing, he is probably providing additional amenity for the few turns of life he has but once he was sitting and dying he was no longer an amenity. His impact culturally around the world was huge but equally has waned but over a longer period. The 9th as a work far surpasses Beethoven and is still hugely played in small pieces all over the world today.
Let’s then consider an entertainment district where Elvis plays, he plays there 2-3 times a year if you are lucky so his amenity value spread over the year is little in any given city.
I think Firaxis have it right, it is about cultural impact and also about having a venue for various acts, about diverting the population with frivolity rather than placing amenity value on an artist.
I also quite like the amenity mechanics as they stand, I enjoy the mechanics I have to strive for and feel success over elated cities while I feel nothing for a gold inflated city.

When things become easy to gain, they have less value. That works for game mechanics too.

 

[bbbt]

I'd be more inclined to have "great entertainers" replace rock bands (ala the great musicians of civ 5) and be a foreign tourism thing (and like civ 5, be multiplicative of your tourism, not whatever rock bands are).

Maybe, like said Civ 5 Great Musicians, they can have both a domestic amenity-related ability and a foreign tourism ability.

 

[kaspergm]

I'd be more inclined to have "great entertainers" replace rock bands (ala the great musicians of civ 5) and be a foreign tourism thing (and like civ 5, be multiplicative of your tourism, not whatever rock bands are).

Maybe, like said Civ 5 Great Musicians, they can have both a domestic amenity-related ability and a foreign tourism ability.

Changing the arbitrary faith-purchased Rock Bands into Great Entertainers is definitely something that gets my vote.

 

[UWHabs]

To reiterate, my main reasons for wanting Great Entertainers are (1) I just can't stand that those are the only speciality districts that don't great GP points and (2) I feel there are too few ways to get cities to Happy/Ecstatic.

Currently, Entertainment Complexes are way too weak. It costs a ton of production to an EC plus an Arena, and then you end up with 3 Amenities which is less than just using one Builder charge to hook up any random luxury. Besides, it is almost impossible to get cities to Ecstatic unless you want to keep your empire very small, so you basically have no incentive to ever build any except for Colosseum. If they gave Great People who helped with happiness, it would kill two birds with one stone in my book.

I doubt they will ever appear since Fireaxis seems to have stopped working on the game.

It obviously won't happen in 6, but as they re-design for 7, I would agree. I don't like the inequality of districts - they at least did a little in turning Great Prophet points to faith once the prophets are gone, but it definitely still feels unfair that EC don't have a great person type, nor do aerodromes or Preserves. At least the diplo quarter/Government Plaza are cheaper and one-time builds, so they act a little more special.

Personally, I think I would rather fold in Entertainment complexes into either other districts or their own completely unique setup entirely. So, for example, give the Theatre Square a base +1 amenity. And then maybe the T1 building there would be either an Arena or an Amphitheatre, basically forcing you to choose amenities or culture as a base yield. Then given that the Zoo and Stadium come fairly late, I could imagine them as their own perhaps unique districts late in the game. I find in like 95% of my games, I simply can't justify a district slot early for the EC anyways, so delaying the district until late makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Personally, I think I would rather fold in Entertainment complexes into either other districts or their own completely unique setup entirely. So, for example, give the Theatre Square a base +1 amenity. And then maybe the T1 building there would be either an Arena or an Amphitheatre, basically forcing you to choose amenities or culture as a base yield. Then given that the Zoo and Stadium come fairly late, I could imagine them as their own perhaps unique districts late in the game. I find in like 95% of my games, I simply can't justify a district slot early for the EC anyways, so delaying the district until late makes a lot of sense to me.

A generic "theater" building which produces culture and amenities would also just suffice for early games in a culture district based on the fact that theaters were multipurpose in use such as either for dramatic purposes or for games, which is what the arena is supposed to represent.

 

[Chekko]

Yes, but instead of Great Entertainers I think there should be earlier versions of Rock Bands, and how they can be used on your own cities as well for a temporary buff on Amenities and some gold (Bonus if you have an Entertainment district building like Arena).

 

[Zaarin]

Yes, but instead of Great Entertainers I think there should be earlier versions of Rock Bands, and how they can be used on your own cities as well for a temporary buff on Amenities and some gold (Bonus if you have an Entertainment district building like Arena).

Rock Bands are such a chore in Civ6. I hope the concept either gets scrapped or streamlined/automated. Also they should absolutely come earlier if they are a thing: wandering poets and musicians have been a thing for as long as there has been human society. However, I think such a thing could very conveniently be abstracted as just part of cultural pressure (which needs some rethinking going forward and could very nicely be tied in with religion and ethnicity mechanics).

 

[UWHabs]

Rock Bands are such a chore in Civ6. I hope the concept either gets scrapped or streamlined/automated. Also they should absolutely come earlier if they are a thing: wandering poets and musicians have been a thing for as long as there has been human society. However, I think such a thing could very conveniently be abstracted as just part of cultural pressure (which needs some rethinking going forward and could very nicely be tied in with religion and ethnicity mechanics).

Yeah, or you re-purpose the Great Musicians to act more like the culture bomb versions we had in previous games. I kind of feel like Great Artists generating works that can be displayed makes sense, but it breaks a little bit thinking about how writers and musicians are handled. It's not like there's original Shakespeare Manuscripts on display that you go and visit. Like, the cultural impact of the Canterbury Tales isn't really about a physical object, and it makes even less sense when you think that somehow England can "trade" or sell it to France, for example, to now generate culture for them.

 

[bbbt]

Rock Bands are such a chore in Civ6. I hope the concept either gets scrapped or streamlined/automated. Also they should absolutely come earlier if they are a thing: wandering poets and musicians have been a thing for as long as there has been human society. However, I think such a thing could very conveniently be abstracted as just part of cultural pressure (which needs some rethinking going forward and could very nicely be tied in with religion and ethnicity mechanics).

Yeah absolutely not a fan. If they keep them I think at the very least they should go back to something like Civ 5 where their effect is based on your current cultural pressure, not just a random number based on RNG.

And I agree they should come earlier. I was hoping Eleanor would come with a unique Troubador version at the very least...

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah, or you re-purpose the Great Musicians to act more like the culture bomb versions we had in previous games. I kind of feel like Great Artists generating works that can be displayed makes sense, but it breaks a little bit thinking about how writers and musicians are handled. It's not like there's original Shakespeare Manuscripts on display that you go and visit. Like, the cultural impact of the Canterbury Tales isn't really about a physical object, and it makes even less sense when you think that somehow England can "trade" or sell it to France, for example, to now generate culture for them.

While true, technically the First Folio is on display in the Victoria and Albert Museum. It's not a manuscript, but it is the first known printing run of Shakespeare's works. (But yes, I agree that the current method of handling music and writing is strange and should be limited to physical objects. A new method of handling non-physical media should be implemented. Best of all, this would allow inclusion of anonymous and non-written works, which I think would be a great addition.)