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[R&F] Great Felons

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by God of Kings, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Great Felons are the Great People the player must avoid at all times.

    Every civ automatically generate Great Felon points based on the total population of the civ. The more populous a civ, the more likely the civ would have a Great Felon.

    The amount of points generated are doubled during a Dark Age, halved during a Golden Age, and not generated during Heroic Ages.

    Once a civ has enough points to recruit a Great Felon, the Great Felon will be recruited and the civ's Great Felon points are subtracted.

    Once a civ has a Great Felon, it will automatically do its thing.

    For example, Classical Era Great Felon Herostratus could show up and destroy one of your world wonders, but he can only show up in a civ with at least one world wonder and generated enough points to recruit him.

    However, Great Felons are limited to those who are deceased for at least 25 years and cannot include politicians who came into power legitimately (Hitler, though he committed genocide, is thus not a Great Felon, since he gained power legitimately through an election). Felons are by definition lawbreakers, not law-benders and not those who take advantage of every loophole.

    There can be a social policy card that prevents the accumulation of Great Felon points at the cost of reduced amenities and/or gold.
     
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  2. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    I like where this is going, but not sure on a couple of points...

    Why is this mainly based on population size? Doesn't seem fair to players who aim for population growth, and may even discourage that. Crime can be very high in small populations, and surprisingly low in very large populations. Take Shanghai for an example. Hugely populated city, but it has an impressively low crime rate (Guangzhou on the other hand has a high crime rate, yet not nearly as many people). Perhaps Great Felons could gain more points from something like low amenities and housing, as well as food (maybe especially food...thinking French and Russian Revolutions), encouraging players to look after their population rather than avoid growing in numbers. On that note, population could be a contributing factor as well, but I don't think it should be the main contributing factor. Perhaps a larger population generates slightly more points, while poor amenities/housing/food generates a lot more points towards a Great Felon. I do like the idea of Dark Ages generating more points, while Golden/Heroic Ages generate less or no points.

    Also, how harsh do we want these Great Felon actions to be? Destroying a wonder seems quite harsh to me. Of course, we don't want their actions to be too weak either. I'd be curious to what kind of ideas people have regarding this.

    Great idea for the game, but I feel it needs a little refining.
     
  3. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Thank you for helping me flesh out Great Felon point generation.

    Population size would be a minor contributing factor, though lack of amenities, food, or housing would be major factors.

    To prevent civs not in a Dark Age from having too many Great Felons, perhaps the number of points required would be quite high (and Great Felon point generation would be very high during Dark Ages).

    Yes, I agree that the idea needs much refining. Herostratus could be toned down into taking X number of turns to destroy a World Wonder.
     
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  4. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    So would Lucky Luciano help you in war?
     
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  5. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Ching Shih would be an interesting choice. Perhaps she would cause a host of naval pirate barbarians to appear as a fleet near your boarders!
     
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  6. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    How about Guy Fawkes?

    He will blow up either the capital's city centre or the government plaza. In either case, buildings will be razed and governors will be incapacitated for many turns, unless you perform a spy mission to prevent the Gunpowder Plot, which may or may not succeed.
     
  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

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    Song Jiang (a real outlaw whose exploits were fictionalised in The Water Margin) and Robin Hood might also be candidates.
    If they caused problems which could become major if undealt with, but gave a bonus if dealt with, they could be interesting. The heroes of The Water Margin were pardoned and became an elite military unit.
    Like random events I suspect quite a lot of people would prefer them to be optional
     
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  8. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    Great Felons:

    Renaissance:
    Blackbeard
    Benjamin Hornigold
    François l'Olonnais

    Industrial:
    Jesse James
    Cole Younger
    James Younger
    Ned Kelly

    Modern:
    Lucky Luciano
    Meyer Lansky
    John Dillinger
    Bugsy Siegel
    Al Capone
     
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  9. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Wouldn't it be easier to just use random events? Dark ages are more probably to produce negative events, golden ages are more probably to produce positive events. For flavor, the event texts could be connected to the people fitting the era.
     
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  10. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Why not a bit of both? Felons are a real part of history, just like random events are. One of the differences is you can work to decrease your chance of getting Great Felons, while random events (natural disasters, etc.) you probably can't do anything to prevent, but just have to deal with the after effects ~ well maybe not settling near mountains could prevent volcanoes, and not settling on the coast could prevent tsunamis?
     
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  11. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

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    In a sense they are random events, but crime and unrest fit Dark Ages.
    I think the random events that got the most hate in Civ IV were the completely random ones you could do nothing about.
     
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  12. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Random events that you can do nothing about...c'est la vie.

    Of course, since it is a game, we want to keep it fun, so we need to factor that into it when considering negative aspects. There's also another side of it, which is the work involved after a natural disaster...that could be an interesting part of the experience.
     
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  13. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Great Felons are not completely random. They are partially controllable by the player. For example, since Golden Ages don't produce many Great Felon points, Georgia could end up with very few (or even no) Great Felons throughout the game.

    Great Felons who were pirates could be accompanied by barbarian ships.

    Thus, there would be some Great Felons accompanied by barbarians who would require having a large military force to take down. Some Great Felons would be capable of capturing a city. Some Great Felons are so powerful, it would take a small military force just to defeat that one Great Felon.
     
  14. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Seems to me there are two types of Great Felons we're talking about here:

    Those that are part of a large, organized group of like-minded people: Pirates spring to mind. They actually have military significance.

    Those that act as individuals or part of a very small group of nefariously-skilled individuals.

    That means that they would have to be handled a little differently. Pirates and raiders are really 'barbarian' equivalent military forces that largely have to be dealt with by military units. Anti-Piracy actions, on the other hand, tend to build goodwill for the pirate-hunting faction, especially among Civs that have trade routes that have been 'plundered' - so your efforts at hunting down the Felons get you both immediate escape from their depredations, but also diplomatic advantage (possibly even with City States: an Envoy with any state that has been plundered by the Felon, perhaps?)

    The individuals are where the fun lies, because they come in much more variety and can have a wild variety of influences.

    For instance:

    1. Guy Fawkes (Renaissance Era) - IF he succeeds, you lose all the Unique Attributes from your Leader for X turns
    2. Adam Worth (Industrial Era) - a Great Work disappears from your Civ; after X turns it shows up for sale to the highest bidder - which may not necessarily be you!
    3. James Gould (Industrial Era) - one of your Banks or Stock Exchanges is plundered - treat it as Pillaged, requires 1/2 the build cost to rebuild, X amount of Gold disappears from your Treasury.
    4. Jesse James OR Butch Cassidy (Industrial Era) plunders Trade Routes in your Civ
    5. Pretty Boy Floyd OR Machine Gun Kelly - removes X Gold from your treasury based on the humber of Banks you have.

    and, among the pirates:
    William Maurice (Medieval Era) - has to be included as a Pirate: he was the first man known to have been hanged, drawn and quartered in England, for piracy in the 13th century CE
    Heyreddin and Oruc Reis (Redbeard) (Renaissance Era) - both pirates, but representing the pre-Caribbean pirate twist: they were primarily slavers. So, they can raid coastal tiles, pillaging the improvements and removing a population point if the improvement is being worked.

    'Pirate' ships should not be the 'standard' warship of the Era, because they almost never were: they relied on speed and stealth to keep away from warships, usually, so perhaps a lighter, faster Galley in Ancient and Classical Era, a Xebec in Medieval, Brig in Renaissance, etc. Each 5 points or so less combat factor but 1 tile faster: hard to catch, but easy to kill if you can catch them with the same Era's warships.

    Great Felons should be international. If Adam Worth can't find a Great Work in your Civ, he will cheerfully steal one from another Civ!
     
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  15. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    The ship preferred by, at least Caribbean pirates, was the Sloop, Brigantine, and Sloop of War. They were fast, had a small profile, maneuverable, and could carry an outsize number of cannons for its size. Perfect for navigating the islands of the Caribbean and outrunning bigger war ships but with enough firepower to make a treasure ship or merchant ship take heed.
     
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  16. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    It sounds like a fun idea! I like the idea that you'd get a nice bonus if you stop the felons and you could lose an important bit of influence if you don't take care of it. Would felons be 'tied down' to the civ they spawned from or would they be able to roam about if they desired?
     
  17. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  18. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    I think the 'international' nature of Great Felons would depend on the Felon. Hard to imagine Guy Fawkes being International, but Adam Worth was a truly international thief, working the Americas, Europe, and South Africa at various times. Butch Cassidy started in the USA, ended up in Bolivia. Pirates are definitely international, with the proviso that many of them could be 'paid off' to not attack your ships and coasts, or to concentrate on a specific Civ as 'illegal privateers'!

    Part of the fun wth Great Felons is the variety that can be worked into the concept

    For instance, Alcibiades of Athens (Classical Era) could be a Great Felon: a Great General/Admiral who can change sides without warning and start working for your enemy, then change sides back without warning. Chaos Personified.
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

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    Or someone like Quintus Sertorius, Roman general with a distinguished career, who backed the losing side in a Roman power struggle, and ended up leading the Sertorian Revolt and established a Hispanic Republic briefly.
     
  20. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    How about this. We use Loyalty as a stand in for adherence to the rules and laws of a civilization, so cities with low loyalty will spawn more great felons some of which can lower loyalty even more. Free cities can become essentially criminal run towns like Tortuga, Nassau, Port Royal, Chicago, and Kowloon Walled City in parts of their history.
     
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