Great general CR3 gunpowder unit tip

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by tempuraki, Jun 4, 2010.

  1. tempuraki

    tempuraki Warlord

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    Usually people settle GGs or make super units, but there's another useful option (tho not all the time) I didn't see much mentioning.

    When playing CHA leader, you only need 8xp to get to CR3. A barrack gives you 3xp, a GG can provide 20xp, which can be evenly distributed to 4 units, or 5xp each. Say you've been playing a CE peaceful early game, and have a dedicated unit city pumping out melee units, at 3xp each, so you have a whole lot of these 3xp units standing around. When you get riflemen or grenadiers, and started attacking and getting some GGs, each GG can make 4 CR3 riflemen or grenadiers. Or infantries.

    Of course, this is probably only useful in this specific scenario (CHA leader, with lots of 3xp melee units around), but it's good to keep this in mind.

    In my current game, I am playing as Brennus (CHA/SPI), one early war, so I have a few CR3 units already. I kept pumping out maces every 2-3 turns all game, so when rifles arrived, I started war with some whipped 3xp riflemen, use them to take down a weaker AI and got some GGs. Then I put 3 3xp maces and 1 high-xp CR3 axe in the same square, and attach a GG to the axe. This way, the axe gets upgrade for free, and doesn't lose the high-xp when upgraded, and the 3xp maces are turned into CR3 riflesmen.
     
  2. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    As long as you don't have both rifling and military science (but have copper or iron) you can still build maces until assembly line.

    I usually settle great generals in one city until I can make 10xp units anyway. Then build a load of CR3 maces, run the slider at 0% for a bit, and upgrade them.
     
  3. stopstopp

    stopstopp Struggling Emperor

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    Personally, I think settling them (especially with representation) is better than using super medics,or in your case, super CR, but I guess it's personal preference.

    CR rifles cost a lot of gold to get, and I don't think CR makes it useful. The combat line works just as well against cities as CR and the combat line unlocks a lot better things.
     
  4. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    CR3 rifles are great if you don't have cannons yet.
     
  5. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

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    Playing as boudica I merge the GG with a Gallic with guerillaIII,give him withdraw/leadership/CR1.He then has a massive 80% retreat chance,which is perfect for 'cracking' cities without the need for Cats.
     
  6. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    no, it's not perfect
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Actually that's when they're at their worst. CR is better when the total defensive bonuses are NOT ridiculously high. If you are attacking things like longbows behind 60% culture, especially on hills, high CR is barely better than the combat line if at all.
     
  8. stopstopp

    stopstopp Struggling Emperor

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    CR seems only to be useful early game, but weakens as you go progress through the game, except for siege.
     
  9. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    It works if you can get spies to deny culture defenses. But that's very expensive to get in every well-defended AI city. It could problably be enough against a small AI. If not, you should probably wait for cannons.
     
  10. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Well I bombard the defences down with trebs first. I don't just attack huge culture cities without doing that. Coastal cities get the frigate treatment.
     
  11. Cusanus

    Cusanus Der Fürst

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    Rep doesn't give beakers for military instructors.
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    .
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    It does... ? Has it always been this way?
     
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I beg to differ. They count as settled specialists, so you get bonuses for Representation and Sistine like any other settled Great Scientist or Priest
     
  13. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    UWHabs is correct.
     
  14. Cookie Crumbs

    Cookie Crumbs Emperor

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    yes it does

    edit: beaten
     
  15. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Burning off Generals on charismatic leaders is the worst time to make a leader.
     
  16. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    Considering the gold to beaker ratio, and the the costs of upgrading units, I hardly ever upgrade units.

    On the GG usage; especially when witout theo/vass, where you can get 20 units to their first promo using just a single GG, it is very useful to split the xp from your first GG over your green troops to get some extra momentum going.
     
  17. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    Upgrading units is perfectly fine. The trick is to run a higher :commerce: focus and have enough extra :commerce: to use it as effective :hammers:. At banking :gold: has the best multipliers in the game from buildings; with +25% mods for :hammers: and +100% for :gold:, you end up paying coming out ahead working 2 :commerce: per :hammers: you forgo. For a food/pop neutral mix (e.g. one mine, one farm) you can get more effective :hammers: from swapping the mine to a WM and turning the farm into cottage after the second growth. With FIN civs it is a gimmee. At to this the fact that upgrades, assuming you've been warring, retain their promotions and upgrading can handily beat building new units.

    No, it gets stronger. Early on you have archers and lbs with inherent city defense bonuses of +50%, you lack siege/spies so culture and walls are not coming down, and it is pretty common for the AI to stockpile counter units with mods (axes or spears). As the game progresses we gain the ability to remove cultural/wall defenses via siege and spies. Archers +50% city defense bonus drops to +25% for LBs and is completely gone with muskets. CRIII comes with a built in bonus vs gunpowder troops ... which would be all the AIs favorite defensive troops from rifles/grenadiers onward.

    What confuses things is the fact that early on your offensive units have a much higher base strength than the AI defenders (axes vs archers), that draws closer to parity (LB vs maces) and eventually reaches parity (rifles vs rifles or infantry vs infantry) with the advent of tanks it swaps back to a stronger base strength attacker. Spies + CRIII rifles is an extremely viable strat as the non-PRO ai's tend to lack the mad defensive bonuses and you can leverage cottages and WMs (both) which gives higher effective yields at this point in the game than anything else you can run (pre-bio, pre-RR, pre-AL, pre-SP; I am excluding farms -> draft as that is more efficient prima facie but gets complicated quick).
     
  18. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    ^presumably you're not accounting for the massive investment in infra that makes up the gold modifiers. If you already have them upgrading is fine, but unless I have the Kremlin and tons of cottages, I'm not putting down the gold modifier buildings en masse until late in the game, if ever.
     
  19. stopstopp

    stopstopp Struggling Emperor

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    I don't see how CR gets stronger.

    1. CR is a dead end promotion
    2. Combat line unlocks a lot of good promotions for specializing not just against cities, like medic, amphibious, shock, formation, cover, pinch
    3. Combat is also good in the field, for taking down AI SOD
    4. In the rifle and infantry phase, getting CR is pricey, which could instead be used for upgrading siege or running a high science rate to get other techs
     
  20. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    SS:

    1. Who cares? CRIII is good enough and the goal is to quickly take land, not to get the highest promo unit you want.

    2. You need one medic per stack it is best to give him drill (so he defends less often). Amphib is entirely situational and getting amphib the hard way is WORSE than taking CR promos instead. Shock becomes worthless with gunpowder, charge rarely is an issue (save maybe a few MG busters), cover dies at RR/MilSci/Rifling. Pinch lasts, but CI/Pinch is weaker than CRII for a lot of situations. The counter promos are extremely problematic anyways, often it will just result in the game swapping defenders for very marginal improvement in odds; CR hits everyone.

    3. Depends. I've fought wars where my CR stack kills the AI civ off before the AI stack gets done bombarding my castle. Against truly insane AIs I want to flank their siege and then let them bang my their heads against my CG troops, in which case forget anything except mounted and CG troops.

    4. Is valid, however if you are going to fight. All those :hammers: in the maces or whatever are sunk costs; further the promos acquired won't be had by anything new. Lastly remember at the time it is FAR easier to maximize tile yield off of cottages than mines. Barring the draft, you can actually normally come out with more production using cottages and upgrades than with anything else.

    CR gets better because at +85% defensive mods CR is equal to Combat. Early on this is not hard to hit (archers come with 50% inherent and 25% for fortifying; promos, hills, and cultural defenses all easily push them over the top). As the game goes on defensive modifiers get harder to come buy. Archers -> Lbs -> muskets shows a progression of dropping defensive mods (50%, 25%, 0%), cultural defenses meet spies and catapults, and hard counters (like axes vs swords) drop by the wayside as such mismatches cease (until MGs, but that dies at tanks). The only reason that this is not obvious is that the ratios of base strengths drops in favour of the defender; which has to do with the units, not the promos.
    JU:
    Markets often are cheaper :) than any other option; grocers can easily be the cheapest health. Frankly I don't know why you wouldn't have them for a lot of economic setups. They give a higher mod/:hammers: than unis and by letting you crank the slider higher, push more :commerce: through your top few high mod science cities. Accounting for the infra investment, say whipping all of it in during RP/Rifling, makes for a stronger option (particularly if I have a strong WS setup with a Shrine or two). Unless you are committed to the draft or some short term goal, they are among the best investments you can make.

    Often, I will just skip the forge (lacking :) resources for it) and grab MGB and swap to rushbuy. Until AL I have better yields off cottages than mines. If I can build or take the Kremlin then I have the most efficient per tile economy out there for production. As an added bonus I can get my infra in long before an infantry or tank war and can quickly swap from troop procurement to research.

    This is one of those things where if I know I'm going to do it, I plan accordingly.
     

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