Great Library or Hanging Gardens

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by robincox, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. robincox

    robincox Warlord

    Apr 16, 2013
    It's quite hard to get both the Great Library and Hanging Gardens on higher difficulty levels. If when building a tall empire you could only get one of them, which would you choose?
  2. Dragonmaster83

    Dragonmaster83 Chieftain

    Sep 23, 2010
    If I were to build only 1 of those 2, Hanging Gardens. GL is kinda a trap to get.
  3. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

    May 23, 2013
  4. neev

    neev Waiting for Civ VI

    Aug 9, 2010
    Paris, EU
    For me it depends on who you play as. With Babylon or Korea, the GL. With someone else tall-oriented, the HG. But most often on Immortal, early wonders are a no-no for me. Most of the time I have to focus on Composite bowmen to repel Attila's/Shaka's countless troops anyway, so...
  5. pozz

    pozz Warlord

    Jul 15, 2013
    Ignoring obvious civs that benefit more from one or the other I'd say HG.
  6. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

    May 12, 2012
    For science and diplomacy, the Great Library is nice because you can choose Philosophy and get the National College that much earlier.

    Hanging Gardens provides a nice food bump (though it can be partly replaced by internal trade routes now). More importantly, if you are playing Cultural and your capital is not on a river/lake, HG is essential to get a free Garden.

    HG is actually MUCH easier to get now that it is limited to Tradition. In Vanilla and G&K, civs would often beeline Mathematics and prioritize HG. Now, only a fraction (1/3 to a 1/4, depending on distribution) of the civs are even eligible for it.

    Also, now that the Ancient Wonders are available, there are more wonders to distract the AI.

    I would personally go for GL first and then shoot for HG, keeping an eye out for Tradition civs to see if there are building the HG.
  7. Baron2

    Baron2 Warlord

    Sep 20, 2005
    In the specific case given by the OP, the Great Library.

    But this is also because I prefer, by far, Liberty to Tradition. Sure, you just need one Policy to get the Gardens, but I'm always rushing Liberty to get the free enginer and a free Wonder.
  8. FrostK

    FrostK Prince

    Apr 26, 2013
    In general GL is much better, hardly achievable thow. But if you want to make a 'dream city' with 999999 population and 99999 wonders HG is a must.
  9. Duponey

    Duponey Chieftain

    Aug 5, 2013
    The HG are a far better idea in my opinion because you may have a free garden in a city that can't have one and you have less risk to miss it because another player would be faster to achieve it.
    The GL seems to be great (no words game intended) but the boost given by the free technologie is at least halved when you count what you would gain by doing the 'normal' librairy, but before, having some turns to produce more whilst you're still waiting for your librairy when trying to build the GL.
    Plus, growth gives you some research too, through the size of your town (and later give you the possibility to grow easily even with a lot of specialists).
  10. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

    Jun 18, 2013
    The Harsh North
    Hanging Gardens, simply because you won't get GL on harder levels. If you can get GL, you can probably get both if you try.

    GL is a noob trap. It's a good early wonder for getting some tech and tourism advantage, but only if you get it first! On Emperor and beyond, you aren't likely to get it first, because the AI wants it a lot and starts with some or all necessary techs unlocked to get it. Then you get the notification: no GL for you, have some gold for a consolation prize. And you're already behind in science for investing in such a project instead of a regular library, which everyone else has now...
  11. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

    Feb 14, 2012
    Very often I won't build either.

    Playing on King, GL seems to go marginally later in BNW than it used to in G&K, but if I can't build it by turn 45, I won't try. Stonehenge is more desirable now, so I go for that instead.

    I'm not actually going Tradition all that much, but if I do, I always have a stab at HG. I've seen it go as late as turn 95 now, which is crazy on King. Seems a shame not to try for it considering how fat you can get your cities with that + Tradition + one of the food beliefs.
  12. ahawk

    ahawk King

    Aug 22, 2011
    I play Emperor and Immortal primarily (with an occasional game on Deity) and I have to say that Great Library is basically written off at those levels. Even on Emperor it tends to get built far before I'm realistically considering hard-building wonders; the only time I've ever gotten GL on Emperor or above is when I played Emperor/Duel and the AI hard-built two other wonders first (Statue of Zeus and Stonehenge, respectively, IIRC, which was odd) and I got a GE somehow (either as Old France using the UA to close Liberty, or Mayan UA, can't remember at the moment) to rush it.

    Now, on the other hand, Hanging Garden is a much safer bet. For one, BNW made it so only a civ that has Tradition open can build it (which limits its availability for AIs to build), and secondly, it's on a different track than Stonehenge-Great Library-Hagia Sophia. It's also a little later in the tech tree. For all these reasons, Hanging Garden is one I can even hard-build on Emperor somewhat often, so long as I have a few forests to chop and/or Marble.

    Long-story short, Great Library is the better wonder, but Hanging Garden is very useful to help boost up a low-food start or go tall quickly, and further, Hanging Garden is the wonder I actually stand a chance at for the difficulty levels I play.
  13. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

    Jul 20, 2012
    For higher difficulties I'd say neither in most cases. The only exception is to go for the GL when you hit a pottery ruin in the first 5 turns of the game AND have a couple of hills or high production tiles around. Even then I'd be prepared to reroll or retire.

    The HG is too far off the beaten path and although the AI has to take Tradition to unlock it most AIs will unlock Tradition.

    The first wonder you can feasibly get on higher difficulties with a generic science beeline is the Oracle.
  14. sonicandfffan

    sonicandfffan Warlord

    Feb 21, 2013
    England, UK
    I've mentioned this a few times now, but opening tradition gives you +3 culture (on top of the growth bonus) which means that your first few policies will actually come quicker anyway. There is literally no reason to not open tradition.

    If you open tradition then beeline collective rule, settle 2 cities and then build two caravans and send food between the cities you should quickly outgrow your neighbours. With the extra culture you're generating from tradition you'll also have huge borders. Build HG as well and we're talking about a very tall empire.
  15. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

    Jul 26, 2013
    Agree there, GL is great, but hard\impossible to get unless you are really lucky on higher diffs, while HG is rather easy to get. You can research Pottery, then switch straight to HG tech, and you'll get it. Also, techwise, it's alot safer, because you'll be forced to research AH, Archery and Wheel, so you'll have no problem fending off early aggression or barbs.

    and speakin' of Stonehenge, it doesn't seem to be priority for AI anymore for some reason? Yes, I see it goes down, but not early as it was in GnK. Either that, or AI doesn't know how to switch to production in his cities, so he needs 50 turns to build it. :rolleyes:
  16. tomplum68

    tomplum68 Warlord

    Oct 5, 2010
    I'd go with HG as the extra food can turn into extra specialists at some point which is huge
  17. superliminal

    superliminal Warlord

    Jul 11, 2013
    I usually go for Great Library, but now I'm thinking I shouldn't. It seems like it's worth it for Korea, Babylon, and France (for the theming bonus), but otherwise Hanging Gardens would have greater long-term reward. I don't know if I've ever gotten HG because I'm always going for GL, so I'll have to try switching that up in my next game. On Emperor though, I've always been able to get GL.
  18. Tachii

    Tachii Procrastinator

    Jul 29, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    GL gets made at like T35, rofl. T45 at the latest from what I've seen.

    Meanwhile HG gets made T55 on a super rare game, and I build it most of the times around T70.

    This is immortal.

    So yeah, HG. The possibility of a free garden in a place without fresh water benefits pretty much every condition except domination along side the food bonus.

    PS: Is it even possible to get BOTH on Immortal? I don't know in what conditions you can possibly make GL around T35. :( Steal a worker, Egypt, settle on Marble, random Writing ruin tech?...
  19. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

    Feb 27, 2011
    Earth (mostly..)
    Since HG gives you x100 more of everything, including science, I think the HG would be a better choice. :santa2:
  20. metatheory

    metatheory Chieftain

    Oct 13, 2010
    Hmm, I think GL has this hands down. The only time I would differ is if I were going tall and started on plains/tundra or I really needed a Garden but didn't settle on water.

    :c5production: 185
    :c5culture: +1
    :c5science: +3
    GPP = +1 GS
    Free Building = Library (75 :c5production:)
    Free Tech = (Variable but lets not kid.. it's Philosophy at 175 :c5science:breakers)
    and 2 Great Writer slots

    Compared to HG
    :c5production: 250
    :c5food: +6
    :c5culture: +1
    Free Building = Garden (120 :c5production:)

    edit: What I didn't consider initially is the +6 :c5food: translates to more science after building bonuses later in the game. But the GS points would probably negate that and then some. Even if not, I would still go with GL though for the early game science boost and GW slots

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