Great Merchants : do they need a boost ? (CPP + CSD)

[Deluxe]

Hi everyone.

Considering that gold is not that useful anymore (well, it still is, but less than it used to be) and that CPP combines well with CSD (in which Great Merchants are way less interesting), it may be interesting to give them a boost, or a new action ?

 

[Funak]

Great merchants are extremely useful atm, their unique improvement is borderline overpowered.
However their instantbulb ability still seems rather useless, and their new powerful UI makes it even worse.
I dropped some suggestions in the other threads about new abilities but it seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.


I'd also like to point out that gold is far from useless. In the early game im almost always goldstarved and well into the midgame poverty is the number one unhappiness among my cities.

 

[Deluxe]

I usually never have gold problems (except with some raging barbarians pillaging all my tiles in the super early games). I usually splits a bit my caravans, that seem to do the trick pretty well.

I did not check the UI that well, true (I did not get any GM in the early game, and after that I usually do the math to calculate the ROI, which is in most cases too long), I'll give it a try. But like all UI, they usually fade, and compared to GE (for wonders/spaceships), GS (~1 shot tech) and even GD (with CSD), they really look underpowered.

I'll try to find your suggestions and read them asap

 

[Funak]

I can usually not even send traderoutes unless i have direct neighbors earlygame, the barbs are just everywhere.

I really don't agree with your point about great tileimprovements, since the manufactory was buffed I haven't rushed a single wonder with one, I always settle them. Scientiests I can't even remember the last time I bulbed one before modern era.
As for the gmerchant GI compared to the other GIs, I find it keeps up with the manufactory pretty well, and it completely blows the academy and the holysite away.


As for the instantuseeffect for the gmerchant, it needs to be quick, shortterm, powerful and relevant.

 

[Deluxe]

Well, I usually just did basic maths, considering the game speed (UI are generally way more interesting when playing in Epic, considering one game can go up 600+ turns).

After the first eras (I would have to start another game to be more precise sadly) I never settle a GS again. The boost in science being the equivalent hundreds of turns (again it clearly depends on the game speed) there is no point of settling it, the instant boost is more interesting.

Same for great engineers, maybe later in the game.

In modern/nuclear era there is no question : a 8000 science point GS completely overpower a 1000 gold GM. Same for the GE. Even for a simple research labs (750 prod), a GE is worth sacrifing : the +10 prod per turn on a tile would need 75 turns do the equivalent. At this stage of the game, 75 turns is probably more than you will need to finish.

 

[mitsho]

As for the instantuseeffect for the gmerchant, it needs to be quick, shortterm, powerful and relevant.

Extra Trade Route?

Honestly, don't have any time to play, but what's wrong with the free Gold? It doesn't have the oomph a Engineer or Scientist can give you, but it's flexible and it can help you a lot in a lot of areas. If it's too weak, increase the amount Buying stuff is fun

 

[Deluxe]

Well, an increase of the amount may work. However it would need a serious increase ...

In this game I make in two turns more than what the GM is giving me. On the other hand I need 7-8 turns to produce as much science as a GS is giving me (I may be a bit behind in term of science).

Gold is definitively fun, but the amount giving the GM is too low to be competitive.

Globally, the amount equals ~1 end game building (a bit less). The average city would need 3/4 turns to build the building. At best the GM is saving you 3/4 turns in one city. Not bad, but not as good as 8 turns of research .

Again, this is with CSD. Without it, the relation bonus + the gold is a solid combo.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Instant gold plus triggering a "we love the king" event? Since the UI gives food now, the growth bonus from a "we love the king" day would fit thematically and could be quite useful in general (and makes it a little less bland than pure gold).

That'd make the GM really useful if you just started a small colony: pop the GM and the city grows faster, plus you can immediately buy some stuff - it's kind of the GM investing in a new settlement, fits gameplay- and flavour-wise.

Insta-population would be an option, too, but sounds really powerful.

 

[jma22tb]

Merchants should fit a role that is of benefit for anybody, which the Town does for sure. More population is great, as is the gold.

Since CS are the Great Diplomat's area, maybe the GM could activate an action like a GS but provide 3 of the strongest available military units, so that you could either use Merchants for pragmatic benefits that other GP do not perform.

Could call the activated action "Mercenary Deal." There hasn't been any Great Person which provides extra units, which I think has enough of a benefit to be strong, but happens slowly enough to be balanced.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Kind of fits, considering that there's a commerce-related social policy allowing cheap mercenaries. Certainly gives them an unique niche - I'm not sure whether just getting 3 units feels a bit underwhelming compared to the engineer... but together with some gold, it's potentially a nice solid effect.

Perhaps even call it something like "fund expedition", alluding to the idea of the wealthy financing expeditions for many reasons.

 

[Gazebo]

I'd have to re-write the merchant AI quite a bit to give it a new ability, but it isn't impossible. A free WLTKD and a big chunk of gold might be fun, if a bit weak compared to free tech and/or production (from other GPs).

G

 

[void_genesis]

How about bulbing a GM gives a short term discount to gold purchases, plus a decent chunk of gold. This would be fun for saving up a big pile of gold as a trade focused civ, popping a GM then bulbing them to go on a spending spree. It could also temporarily allow a higher number of troops purchased per city in one turn if needed. This would allow a rich civ to buy an instant army and could be loads of fun, though the limited number of turns thing could be enough to balance it properly.

 

[Funak]

A few instant pop in a city could work, some food based on current pop could work.
Adding something to the gold you already get could work aswell, but there really is way too much overlapping for most yields.
Science would overlap with scientist, golden age points would overlap with artist, culture would overlap with a writer, tourism would overlap with a musician.

Starting WLTKD seems extremely hard to maximize, if some of your cities already are in WLTKD are you supposed to wait for them to get out of it? It kinda takes away from the instant part of the instanteffect. Also since there are other policies and beliefs that affect WLTKD it is going to be hell to balance it. And at that point wouldn't it just be easier to create our own event for the merchant to stop overlapping issues? 25% extra gold and growth for X turns? if it feels weak we can just add something else to it?
Personally I think most stuff that are over time, even if it is just X turns takes away from the main point of the ability, that it is supposed to be instant.

 

[Deluxe]

I quite like the idea of a 2nd possible action, like popping mercenary troops (your GM goes to a CS, you get some gold and he also "buys" troops from the CS ?). This is more instant and tangible than a WTKD. I would like that too however.