Great Musicians

[Zanteogo]

Does anyone actually create the great works with their musicians any more?

The primary reason for creating great works is the passive tourism they create. Great works of course also create a small passive culture bonus and can be themed for other bonuses. The main thing is the tourism bonus however.

The thing is, the amount of tourism you gain for using the great musician non-great work power is crazy big. So much that it far out weights the amount, by a long shot, that you would ever gain from the passive amount.

This also brings me to a second point...

In CPP you gain tourism from a bunch of sources. Era changes, great person creations, arenas, trade routes and winning wars. The "other" sources quickly dwarf the passive amount from great works. This really shifts the balance from using great persons to create great works or using their other power. Normally this occur mid/late game, however, I find the tipping point for this happens much earlier now. Burning all your great writers gives you 3 or 4 extra social policy's for example. The small culture and comparably small tourism over the length of a game doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Dawnbringer]

Well, all great persons who gives a certain yield will always work like that. It's only worth it early on to make a great work (if at all). The only exception would always be artists since they don't have that option (but you can sustain a long term golden-age). Great works are rarely worth it nowadays, and the bonuses are so miniscule (even when themed) that makes it hardly worth the effort to stack them. It's more so because they only give a small flat amount instead of scaling.

I don't know if it's possible, but I think it would be better if we had a exponential system for great works instead of our current system (but honestly, it's a lot of coding and work, and it isn't really necessary). Such as having a great works "collection" in the palace, and the wonders will only grant extra slots to it instead. And since it'll increase exponentially, for simplicity's sake using 2 (X squared), the tourism bonus becomes more and more appealing as you stack higher, but only up to a "cap" since you will run out of slots if you don't invest in wonders.

Edit: I almost forgot, there is one reason you'd pop great works in this patch, and that's when you play Egypt (just look at the thread "is this a new feature or major bug" down below).

 

[ExpiredReign]

I was in the habit of using ALL GP to create their works mainly because of the necessity I feel to completely fill every available slot in my culture rich cities. That was up till the point I noticed the AI sending their GP to my shores and eroding all that advantage I had over them, now I tend to use them for their concert tours more and more.

 

[Gazebo]

Does anyone actually create the great works with their musicians any more?

The primary reason for creating great works is the passive tourism they create. Great works of course also create a small passive culture bonus and can be themed for other bonuses. The main thing is the tourism bonus however.

The thing is, the amount of tourism you gain for using the great musician non-great work power is crazy big. So much that it far out weights the amount, by a long shot, that you would ever gain from the passive amount.

This also brings me to a second point...

In CPP you gain tourism from a bunch of sources. Era changes, great person creations, arenas, trade routes and winning wars. The "other" sources quickly dwarf the passive amount from great works. This really shifts the balance from using great persons to create great works or using their other power. Normally this occur mid/late game, however, I find the tipping point for this happens much earlier now. Burning all your great writers gives you 3 or 4 extra social policy's for example. The small culture and comparably small tourism over the length of a game doesn't seem worth it.

None of the GPs that create great works generate permanent or 'useable' yields, though. You need constant culture and tourism to keep your tourism defense up, and you need it for policies/tenets and illiteracy unhappiness. Tourism is also useful for maintaining whatever instant bonuses you gain – if you don't have enough, your bonuses will fall off and the instant tourism will have been a waste.

G

 

[wobuffet]

I agree with OP:

(1) if you're working Musician Specialists, you're probably going for the Cultural Victory; and
(2) if you're going for the CV, you're probably going to want the big one-time Tourism boost rather than a slow trickle of Culture and Tourism.​

In that sense, perhaps Great Works of Music should be treated a bit differently from Great Works of Art or Writing.

An easy recipe for doing that would be

1. Make slots for Great Works of Music only appear in sets (no singleton slots).
2. Then, make Theming bonuses for Great Works of Music significantly beefier (e.g., +20% Culture from excess Happiness, or +8 per Opera House in your empire).

Then, your early-mid-game Great Artists could pose a more interesting question: theme up and get a juicy non-Tourism bonus, or just pump out raw Tourism as soon as possible?

This could be balanced out by making Musician Specialists produce less raw Culture per turn than Writer or Artist Specialists can, which would happily also add some much-needed variety (and a dynamic/timing element) to the decision of how many/which Culture Specialists to run.


edit: Somewhat tangentially, seems to me that Tourism from Historic Events could be toned down a bit in general; making Great Works-related Tourism more important to Cultural Victories could really help turn the burn-or-Great-Work decisions towards Great Works.

edit2: The hover-text for theming bonuses only mentions non-Tourism bonuses. But each theming bonus also carries a direct Tourism boost also, right? It would be nice to have this made explicit! If I'm not wrong (please confirm me), I'll file a bug report in case G doesn't see this.

 

[Zanteogo]

None of the GPs that create great works generate permanent or 'useable' yields, though. You need constant culture and tourism to keep your tourism defense up, and you need it for policies/tenets and illiteracy unhappiness. Tourism is also useful for maintaining whatever instant bonuses you gain – if you don't have enough, your bonuses will fall off and the instant tourism will have been a waste.

G

With the musician you make so much more tourism doing the concert than creating the music great work, the great work is sort of pointless. You don't need a constant passive tourism if the great big chunks of tourism far our do what you would have gained with the same passive amount.

The great musician has one job, creating tourism. (unlike the others that have duel functions) The concert is crazy good at doing this. Way better by miles than creating the great work.

 

[Gazebo]

With the musician you make so much more tourism doing the concert than creating the music great work, the great work is sort of pointless. You don't need a constant passive tourism if the great big chunks of tourism far our do what you would have gained with the same passive amount.

The great musician has one job, creating tourism. (unlike the others that have duel functions) The concert is crazy good at doing this. Way better by miles than creating the great work.

I wasn't arguing for musicians specifically - OP stated that he believed all great works are without value, and I disagree. Musicians are better at concerts if you are going on the offensive, otherwise the great work is better.

 

[wobuffet]

If you're not on the offensive, however, you're probably not going to bother employing any Musician Specialists, IMO: you'd be running Writers and Artists instead. If you're maxing out all three types, you're at least gunning for a Cultural Victory as a backup plan (or you're making very strange gameplay decisions).

 

[Gazebo]

If you're not on the offensive, however, you're probably not going to bother employing any Musician Specialists, IMO: you'd be running Writers and Artists instead. If you're maxing out all three types, you're at least gunning for a Cultural Victory as a backup plan (or you're making very strange gameplay decisions).

The musician specialists provide very solid culture, which is useful for policies, wonders, tenets, defense, etc.

G

 

[Zanteogo]

I wasn't arguing for musicians specifically - OP stated that he believed all great works are without value, and I disagree. Musicians are better at concerts if you are going on the offensive, otherwise the great work is better.

How is the great work better though?

Again, the main function of great work is tourism. The concert creates much more by far.

Tourism is tourism. It makes no difference how you gain it.

The ONLY difference is the concert gives the target a WLKD in all their cities, perhaps it should give a second bonus or something else to make creating the great work a real option?

 

[Gazebo]

How is the great work better though?

Again, the main function of great work is tourism. The concert creates much more by far.

Tourism is tourism. It makes no difference how you gain it.

The ONLY difference is the concert gives the target a WLKD in all their cities, perhaps it should give a second bonus or something else to make creating the great work a real option?

Because Tourism is not defensive. It does nothing to prevent influence over you from another civ. That's what Great Works of Music and Musician specialists are for if you are playing defensively.

G

 

[wobuffet]

@Gazebo, I understand what you're saying, but I think the system would make more sense with Writers being the #1 option for playing (Cultural) defense given the Political Treatise ability (and Artists #2) -- the idea being to have a variety of different types of artists, with Musicians being the most offensive option.

Thinking about how to balance Tourism vs culture output and whether sizeable theming bonuses are worth it (in my proposal above) would be more interesting than the current (compare per-Specialist yields and pick the best option for that City) setup.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo, I understand what you're saying, but I think the system would make more sense with Writers being the #1 option for playing (Cultural) defense given the Political Treatise ability (and Artists #2) -- the idea being to have a variety of different types of artists, with Musicians being the most offensive option.

Thinking about how to balance Tourism vs culture output and whether sizeable theming bonuses are worth it (in my proposal above) would be more interesting than the current (compare per-Specialist yields and pick the best option for that City) setup.

That's precisely how it works right now. Writers are best at tourism defense, Artists are 'synergy boosters' (Golden Ages trigger a lot of different bonuses), and Musicians are best at offense. Each provides base culture via specialists, as well as some different yields, but other than that, they're all about as varied as they can be without some major reworking not just of the game, but of the AI as well.

G

 

[wobuffet]

That's precisely how it works right now. Writers are best at tourism defense, Artists are 'synergy boosters' (Golden Ages trigger a lot of different bonuses), and Musicians are best at offense. Each provides base culture via specialists, as well as some different yields, but other than that, they're all about as varied as they can be without some major reworking not just of the game, but of the AI as well.

G

With the caveat that I really have no idea what counts a major rework, I just fundamentally agree with OP that using a Great Musician for a Great Work (instead of a Concert Tour) isn't fun and is basically never a good decision to make right now. If you're working Musicians, you want Tourism, and Concert Tours give a high dose of pure Tourism.

I think the easiest way to fix it would be basically

• Lower Musician Specialist yields (e.g., Culture) per turn
• Get rid of singleton Great Works of Music slots (so no Mandir, Opera House slot). Possibly add two slots per Musicians' Guild instead.
• Beef up Music Theming bonuses (e.g., double normal Theming bonuses?).
• Tell AI to only work Musician Slots if going for a Cultural Victory.

, but again, I know nothing about what's easy or hard to actually implement!
It just seems a shame to have that strategic hole (never create Great Works of Music) in an otherwise pretty varied and balanced system.

 

[Gazebo]

With the caveat that I really have no idea what counts a major rework, I just fundamentally agree with OP that using a Great Musician for a Great Work (instead of a Concert Tour) isn't fun and is basically never a good decision to make right now. If you're working Musicians, you want Tourism, and Concert Tours give a high dose of pure Tourism.

I think the easiest way to fix it would be basically

• Lower Musician Specialist yields (e.g., Culture) per turn
• Get rid of singleton Great Works of Music slots (so no Mandir, Opera House slot). Possibly add two slots per Musicians' Guild instead.
• Beef up Music Theming bonuses (e.g., double normal Theming bonuses?).
• Tell AI to only work Musician Slots if going for a Cultural Victory.

, but again, I know nothing about what's easy or hard to actually implement!
It just seems a shame to have that strategic hole (never create Great Works of Music) in an otherwise pretty varied and balanced system.

Those are different, and viable, suggestions compared to your earlier ones, as they are simply SQL/XML changes (except for the AI of course). I'm not sure why we'd want to lower musician culture, however. I'll need more input on this from others before moving on the idea.

G

 

[Magean]

Because Tourism is not defensive. It does nothing to prevent influence over you from another civ. That's what Great Works of Music and Musician specialists are for if you are playing defensively.

G

Has this been changed from Vanilla BNW in which tourism is not only offensive but also defensive regarding ideological unhappiness ? For example, if another civ's culture is Familiar to your civ but yours is only Exotic to them, then you'll get more ideological unhappiness than if you're both Familiar to each other. Does it work the same in CBP ?

Also, doesn't the Great Musician's concert tour immediately ups your level of influence to 50% if it was below ? I haven't tried it myself (I only got to use concerts while above 50%), but that's what I understand from the tooltip. If this holds true, then the concert is a formidable tool to create ideological pressure (while preserving your happiness, if the rational of the previous paragraph holds in CBP). You may have completely neglected tourism yet still get a decent level of influence toward other civilizations. You may not be preparing for a culture victory, but this is still very powerful. It helps internal & external affairs a lot - much more than the few culture points from the great works - by preserving national happiness while pushing other players to your ideology and disturbing their plans.

 

[ExpiredReign]

...

• Lower Musician Specialist yields (e.g., Culture) per turn
• Get rid of singleton Great Works of Music slots (so no Mandir, Opera House slot). Possibly add two slots per Musicians' Guild instead.
• Beef up Music Theming bonuses (e.g., double normal Theming bonuses?).
• Tell AI to only work Musician Slots if going for a Cultural Victory.

...

Those middle 2 ideas are really good IMHO and should probably be discussed more fully.

 

[Strigvir]

Has this been changed from Vanilla BNW in which tourism is not only offensive but also defensive regarding ideological unhappiness ? For example, if another civ's culture is Familiar to your civ but yours is only Exotic to them, then you'll get more ideological unhappiness than if you're both Familiar to each other. Does it work the same in CBP ?

Tourism was never a defensive stat. Ideological pressure depends on the Influence of civs with different ideologies over you, and Influence is decided by the Culture you've produced versus Tourism generated against you.
Also the chances of bombing different ideology civs with Musicians are pretty slim, as they require Open Borders to perform tours.

 

[wobuffet]

...

• Lower Musician Specialist yields (e.g., Culture) per turn
  
• Get rid of singleton Great Works of Music slots (so no Mandir, Opera House slot). Possibly add two slots per Musicians' Guild instead.
• Beef up Music Theming bonuses (e.g., double normal Theming bonuses?).
  [*]Tell AI to only work Musician Slots if going for a Cultural Victory.
  

...

Those middle 2 ideas are really good IMHO and should probably be discussed more fully.

Just wanted to add, the top idea was just to balance out the increased Theming bonuses for Great Works of Music (with the idea that if the GP is more powerful, the road there should be a bit less profitable).

Glad you see where I'm driving though!

 

[Zanteogo]

Because Tourism is not defensive. It does nothing to prevent influence over you from another civ. That's what Great Works of Music and Musician specialists are for if you are playing defensively.

G

Unless I overlooked something, how do (music) great works help playing defensively?

The AI doesn't get upset when you send GM into their lands and spread tourism. The concert spreads WAY more tourism in one go than you will ever create with your great works.

Artists and writers at least have two very different effects. I still think burning the writer to create culture is still usually the better option however, particularly when the ideologies haven't been cracked yet. Though at least with the writer it's an actual choice. Artists are the only one that actually give me a real choice during the whole game up until around the modern age. (when the golden age is usually the better)

The thing was before the changes to the way the concert worked with the great musician, it was more of an option. After it was made to automatically bring it up to familiar or a massive amount, the choice has been weighed to use the concert.