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[R&F] Great People, and "filling the buckets"

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by unpossible251, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Hi Civ'ers;

    Just got R&F (mac player) and am pretty stoked with the loyalty system. What I like so far is that sniping the edges of a civ will probably not earn you much, as the city will eventually flip back. However, cut the heart out of your neighbours - drive right through and take the capital, and everything in the path towards it - will result in the eventual dissolution of any surrounding cities. Loyalty is a great mechanic that, I initially thought, is basically doing the job tourism did in Civ5. Turns out, its better, and more dynamic.

    Sadly, though, tourism (and great people generally) is just "filling the bucket". Build some cities, build some theatre zones, build the buildings, and wait. Eventually, the game taps you on the shoulder and says "its ok to stop now. You have the culture victory" - which is far, far less dynamic than domination or religious victory.

    I know I'm oversimplifying somewhat. Seaside resorts and national parks add some real think-it-through elements to the game, where you have to be considering what youre going to place where. It won't do at all to mismanage high appeal tiles. Archaeologists are also kind of interesting, and theming great works in art museums is a thing.

    But, bottom line is, the Great People game is just "filling the bucket". Worse, its a bucket system that snowballs. Build markets to get you the Great Merchant that autobuilds a bank, which gets you more Great Merchants. Libraries get you Newton, who gets you a free university, which gets you more Great Scientists.

    I'd like to see a move away from bucket filling. With Great People, it could go like this: build a CZ. Then a Market. Transfer a citizen to work in the Market, and he or she gives you a Market Quest. These quests are similar to City State quests, which reset every era or so. Something like "build a "---" district adjacent to a market" or "become suzerian of an economic city state" or "have a 30 hex length trade route". Or, for great engineers: build the IZ, then a workshop. Put a citizen in the workshop... then your Industrial Quest is "harvest 3 bonus resources" or "pillage a mine from a major civ". Great writers come from theatre zones, ampitheatres, and completing the "promote a unit to level 4" Theatre Quest. Likewise with Generals and Admirals.

    The basic idea is your civ has a quest to do something roughly equivelant to what the Great Person did in the real world (+ civlopedia). Homer writes The Iliad about a war you had against Japan, Michaelangelo works in a workshop adjacent to a theatre, Boudecia emerges from a war against Barbarians, Smith observes capitalism taking form from the trade routes that start from his bank.

    Love the game, and hate to whinge. But bucket filling is tedious, and could be made into something more exciting. I like playing peacefully, but the game needs more to coax out the turtling habits. Picasso's "Guernica" or Beethoven's 1812th didn't come from waiting for bars to fill.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It certainly could be improved and a lot of it is bucket filling. If it is just so then up your difficulty level, the trouble is the AI culture was nerfed by the patch nerfing monuments so in R&F it easier to catch the AI.
    Trade routes are a little bit extra to consider as is how fast you push science or if you purely push science.
    Culture victory in its fastest form (apart from freak occurrences) is a form of domination victory really.
    OCC culture victory can be a nice challenge and you can just try and win with just one thing like resorts or parks.
    A non warring religious game can be quite fun but a non warring culture is often the default for people wanting to build empires amd the victory is not the main point.
     
  3. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    GP points coming from passive infrastructure instead of specialists which can be dynamically managed is very weird game design, to say at least.
    I believe devs simply didn’t code AI to properly manage specialists because there is a table that allows to generate GPPs from specialists. It is empty now. And if you see how city governor assigns citizens, neglecting specialists, then you understand why buildings generate points, not people.
     
    Depravo, acluewithout and Victoria like this.
  4. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Can you elaborate? Do you mean, do you play as a bully, force the others to hand over their great works, and top it off with seaside resorts?
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    To win you need to get more foreign tourists that other civs domestic tourists. They get 1 domestic tourist for every 100 culture they accumulate so just sinply reduce them to as little as possible without their cities flipping.
     
  6. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Oh, i see. Burn them. Burn them all. That would work. Burning things always works.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Playing stabby stab stab also works, you can play them both.
    Just make sure you are the one making the rules.
     
  8. whylom

    whylom Chieftain

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    I really hope scholars unearth "Beethoven's 1812th" in my lifetime. And I hope it has a part for cannons. :)

    Joking aside, I enjoy the culture game immensely, but would love to see Firaxis fill it out it more in future expansions. One can imagine the cultural and artistic history of the world making for a fairly complex strategy game on its own. So the trick would be balancing any expansion of tourism/culture victory with the more traditional 4X mechanics we all love about Civ.
     
  9. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    There is some bucket filling for cv. But it’s also very fun bucket filling - lots of different buckets, and many ways to fill them. And that buckets get bigger over time.

    Much better than ‘box ticking’ dom and religious dom victories and the other bucket filler, science victory.

    I think what would improve culture victory slightly would be different sorts of theatre projects so you can focus on different sorts of cultural great people.

    I’m also like to see more buildings which impact on tourism so there was even more of the builder game (something which CV already has with seaside resorts, national parks etc.). eg International Airport or International Hotels which provide a regional %tourism bonus or perhaps a bonus in certain eras (like America’s Film Studio does).
     
    whylom and unpossible251 like this.
  10. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Oh God! The 1812 overture was Tchaikovsky! Shame, shame, shame...
     

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