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Great People, Civics and Wonders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    This is a very old suggestion of mine, but as far as I know no one has reviewed it or otherwise put it up for incorporation, so I figured that now would be as good a time as any to give it a revision and reairing;

    Firstly, I would like to propose that the Central Bank wonder only be available to civilizations with the Corporatist, Green, Guilds, Mercantile, Planned, Regulated or Slavery civics. A minor one, but one which would feel a lot more realistic to me.

    Secondly, I think that the Universal Healthcare wonder should either be dropped entirely or restricted to the Subsidized and Socialized civics, for obvious reasons. I'm not sure why having Subsidized or Socialized wouldn't imply UH anyway.

    Thirdly, it would make a lot more sense to me if the Women's Suffrage wonder be restricted to the Democracy, Federal and Republic civics, seeing as how these civics are the only forms of government I can see possessing a system of voting to begin with (barring perhaps certain models of anarchism that would probably fall under Federal anyway).

    In all three of these cases, these wonders would simply have no effect whatsoever when not using the appropriate civics.

    Fourthly, and this is a very minor one indeed, could the tech "Global Governance" be removed from the tree? Past inquiries have revealed it to be some form of holdover from an old version of RAND.

    Lastly, to provide somewhat of an alternate method to turning off Unlimited Wonders for balance in wonder creation between players and cities, how about making certain wonders only buildable by :gp:, and others not requiring :gp:, but still being able to be built by them? All other requirements for wonder building would still apply, of course, and this option is by no means mutually exclusive with Unlimited Wonders.

    The wonders I see as only being able to be constructed by :gp: are;
    Spoiler :
    :culture:Great Artist:culture:
    Carhenge
    J.S. Bach's Cathedral
    Phidias Statue Workshop
    Plato's Academy
    Rock N Roll
    The Sistine Chapel
    The Statue of Liberty
    :health:Great Doctor:health:
    Cure for Cancer
    Hippocratic Oath
    :hammers:Great Engineer:hammers:
    Akshardam
    Archimede's Workshop
    Brandenburg Gate
    Leaning Tower of Pisa
    Leonardo's Workshop
    Mausoleum of Maussallos
    Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque
    The Eiffel Tower
    World Trade Center
    :strength:Great General:strength:
    King Richard's Crusade
    Sun Tzu's Art of War
    :gold:Great Merchant:gold:
    Adam Smith's Trading Company
    Bolshoi
    Magellan's Voyage
    Marco Polo's Embassy
    World News Network
    :science:Great Scientist:science:
    Copernicus Observatory
    Edison's Workshop
    Einstein's Laboratory
    Isaac Newton's College


    While the wonders I see as being able to be constructed by, but not only by :gp: are;
    Spoiler :
    :culture:Great Artist:culture:
    Amusement Park
    Globe Theatre
    Heroic Epic
    Modern Art Theatre
    Movie Studio
    Mt. Rushmore
    National Epic
    National TV Station
    :health:Great Doctor:health:
    Medical Clinic
    Red Cross
    Research Hospital
    :strength:Great General:strength:
    West Point
    :gold:Great Merchant:gold:
    Amusement Park
    Chemical Plant
    Fertilizer Plant
    Ironworks
    National Courier System
    National Mint
    National TV Station
    Recording Studio
    Replicator Plant
    Rubber Plant
    Travel Agency
    Treasury
    :science:Great Scientist:science:
    Computer Center
    Deep Space Research Institute
    Mind Storage
    Nanite Lab
    Nano Research Department
    National Science Foundation
    National Weather Service
    Oxford University
    Radio Telescope
    Replicator Plant
    Space Laboratory
    Supercollider
    :espionage:Great Spy:espionage:
    Homeland Security Department
    Propaganda Net
    Radio Telescope
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    The only reason I am not keen on this is that it seems to boil down to getting more GP because you have GP. That and the fact that I never (except in my current game) get a Great Engineer.
     
  3. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I don't think I have modified any of the first 3 so any changes could still be done to the core files if SO or DH feel these ideas are good. I don't care either way about the proposed changes.

    The 4th I am not as familiar with. What is the techs name? I cannot find it on my tree (see signature).

    As for the Limited Wonders i think there are more than enough spots in an empire if you grow them. You of course cannot pile every same type of wonder in one city but I think that makes for better balance.

    And I have to agree with DH that GP will turn into focusing in only getting more GP. You would also loose the other balancing factors of having to build them and possibly not getting it done in time before another civ gets it before you. Taking out that would lessen the usefulness of units like the Early Merchant or Trade Carts, etc.
     
  4. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

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    You're quite right, it's not in your tech tree.
    Nevertheless it's in the game, i just checked. The techs name is Global Governance and it's available with globalization, at least the xml and sevopedia tell me so.
     
  5. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Yeah I checked the civpedia. And in the file its set to X-1 Y-1 which means it hidden and not even on the tree. From the looks of it is a dead end tech too.

    What was it suppose to do?
     
  6. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    The main reason I suggest the :gp: only and :gp: built wonders is that many people have complained in the past that only Great Prophets and Generals possess a great deal of in-game utility, and this new feature might give people more of an incentive to develop other forms of :gp:.

    EDIT: The tech does nothing, uses the same icon as Communication Networks, and it's only distinguishing attribute, other than it's name, is in having a unique quote from Einstein.
     
  7. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I haven't seen a Great Spy in over 50 games.
     
  8. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I would have no problem if we did #2 for all the wonders mentioned, ie they can be built by the G Person or normally.
     
  9. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    I thought of something similar a while ago, about Great Scientists. Great Scientists are the only kind of Great Person whose unique ability goes obsolete. Great Work, Engineer Rush, Trade Mission, Religious Shrine, and Infiltrate City never go obsolete, but Academy goes obsolete with Computers. That leaves a lot of the game without the Scientist having a special ability. What if Great Scientists had the ability to rush a Project the same way Great Engineers could rush a building? I'm thinking here of Darwin and the Theory of Evolution, and all the scientists associated with the Manhattan Project.
     
  10. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Or reduce the Academy bonus and not obsolete it? Maybe even add a building another Great Scientist can build if Academy is present so one needs two GP Scientists to get to the same bonus the Academy has now?

    Never like it going obsolete...

    Cheers
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I have to agree I never liked it going obsolete either. I like the idea of having two. An Ancient/Classical Academy with half the bonus and a later Academy to up date it.

    Another problem with the GP building wonders I just thought of. The first person to get a health tech gets a free G Doctor. If the GD can build the wonder that has just become available it becomes like getting a free wonder on getting the tech.
     
  12. Yid

    Yid Chieftain

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    I had another revolutionary idea about :gp: :
    If we feel that it is to easy to accumulate GPP, we could enable that instead of/additional to the normal way, also HEROES are build on GPP. Maybe using a rule like this: if there is a national hero available and a GPP emerges: create the hero. Of course you have to find a solution what happens if the Hero is already in the production queue somewhere, like ...
    * the Hero is not created from GPP if it is in any build queue,
    * or he is removed from production: :hammers: are converted to :gold:,
    * or Heroes cannot be build normally with :hammers: anymore.
    I guess the effect should be the same as if a :gp: creates a wonder which is already queued.

    The algorithm can be refined later, like if a great prophet would be created, try to take a National Hero with initial "Bard (I don't know, is Bard the one with the "Cross"-Icon, I mean that one) Promotion".
     
  13. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Seems like the heroes would make GP less important. Note that many of the heroes are already named as GP.
     
  14. Yid

    Yid Chieftain

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    Heroes can do some things (even more) than "ordinary" great people as of today! In my current game they can join the city as any super-specialist. A great person can only join as one kind of super-specialist.
     
  15. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Good point, though I'd look at it froma slightly different perspective - should heroes be able to create ANY super-specialist? The other things they can do are unique, so why have them trample on GP toes also?
     
  16. Yid

    Yid Chieftain

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    I agree. It seems to me this is meant to be the "exit strategy" for Heroes, should they become obsolete. But one kind of super-specialist might be better, like a new type like "Retired hero", or "Super Celebrity".

    In another thread Hydro wrote about a month ago or so, that he planned to create some exit strategy for obsolete Heroes. He wrote something about a special building, like a monument. Maybe SO took just a shortcut, saving a special building?
     
  17. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    That's a good point. It was never decided what stats the heroic monument should have.
     
  18. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    So I take it then that nobody has any issues with changes 1 through 4? If so, I'd like to note that the lack of certain kinds of :gp:, in my opinion, speaks to some problem with the way :gp: and the points which go towards particular kinds of :gp: are generated. Would it be possible to launch an inquiry into a rebalance of these factors, towards the end of seeing all kinds of :gp: a roughly equal amount of time? I'm thinking, say, making all manufacturing buildings boost the Great Engineer possibility, much as religious buildings boost Great Prophets. Crime buildings, similarly, could boost Great Spies, giving an additional benefit to them for the savvy player's use. Just a thought.
     
  19. xartah

    xartah Chieftain

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    Could something be done to the problem of priests giving a much higher amount of hammers than engineers with a few wonders that boost priests.
     
  20. KingArthur666

    KingArthur666 Warlord

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    Has there been any further consideration for doing anything with the Great People? I always play with divine prophets so the Great Prophet is incredibly powerful, and plentiful, I like Great Scientists (for the academy) once I get advanced enough to get them, but most of the rest seem lame and useless. Great Engineers used to be incredibly sought after (insta build a wonder? BOYAH!) now with trade caravans, slaves, and such that power is not so sought after, if using the natural spreading corporations (which I do, though I've yet to see it actually work) they are needed even less. Great Merchant? What a laugh. And I never seem to get any of the others. Well, except the generals but they are generated via a completely separate system, which makes them awesome.
    Has there been any thought to a complete overhaul of the Great People system? I was just wondering.
    I had a thought it might be cool if Great Engineers could be on a scale like the Great Generals. You get points for building buildings, extra for national wonders, and more for Great Wonders. But then I remember Great Engineers aren't so great anymore. :(
     

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