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Great People Generation

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    That's perfect. Let's pair Great Spies with Espionage and Great Generals with Military.

    Great Doctors for Growth sound promising. Let's see: Doctor specialists could provide 3:health: and be attached to buildings such as Baths and Hospitals. Unlimited Doctors could be available at Environmentalism civic and certain Wonders could be tweaked to produce Great Doctor GPP. Are they something you'd like to see in 1.21? I can include them in my next draft.

    (I assume specialists CAN produce health and happiness? Is there anything else they can produce? XP for sure. What about trade routes? I've been thinking about retooling Priests to produce happiness. Unlike the other specialists, they don't have a primary yield type.)

    I don't think it matters too much. The important thing is that each Golden Age requires one more Great Person of a different type than the last. This puts an upper limit on how many Golden Ages you can realistically trigger. After around three, not only is it difficult to generate the right Great People, you're also better off using them immediately in other ways (founding corporations, discovering technologies, settling in National Wonder cities) than waiting around until you have a matched set. Adding Great Generals to the mix doesn't really change that. It does mean that Great Generals born towards the end of a war can be put to peaceful uses, turning wartime victories into peacetime prosperity.

    I'm not sure how worthwhile this would be. Quite apart from the fact that we can't add a ninth flavour, naval combat is not a significant part of the game on most map types. I think the effort required to create a separate GP counter for naval combat - and apply the bonus XP from settled Great Generals to land units only - would be better spent elsewhere.

    I think I'll move this discussion into a new thread. At the moment I think we should name the National Wonder the Security Bureau, and rework the Security Bureau into a Police Station/Constabulary -type building.

    OK. I'll shelve that idea for now.

    Eh, I was mostly trying to give Great Prophets more things to do: the idea being that since wandering holy men would not normally attract the attention of national governments or barbarian warlords, they could fly under the radar somewhat. The Conversion ability would not be nearly as threatening if players could close borders at the first sign of a rival Great Prophet, either. Instead, it would give players a reason to keep borders with heathen states permanently closed.

    I'm not too attached to the idea, though.

    Yep. I'll include those in Draft Three. The trouble is that most abilities are too powerful not because they can be used early but because they can be repeated. Is there any way to code one-shot abilities?
     
  2. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    They cannot produce health, happiness, or trade routes. I could possibly add such functionality but it wouldn't be easy. If we feel Great Doctors absolutely can't be done without health or such, then I'd prefer to leave them till 1.22. Do consider them in your next draft though.

    Convinced.

    Aye, I've not yet thought of any implementation for them that is both practical and suitably enriching of the naval game.

    Via the event system, yes. I really don't like using it though as it involves extra xml work and requires you to have at least one popup.


    EDIT: Haven't forgotten about your balance suggestions, just trying not to focus on too many things at once. Will hopefully respond soon.
     
  3. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Given separate Great Person pools is quite a fundamental change, I'd really like it if a few volunteers could patch my progress so far into their copy of 1.20 for a few games. Not just to test for errors, but also to get a feel for how it impacts on gameplay and what adjustments we may need to make.

    I've attached the necessary 5 files for those willing to try this out. They replace the files of the same name at these locations:

    /History Rewritten/Assets/Python/CvGameUtils.py
    /History Rewritten/Assets/Python/HR.py
    /History Rewritten/Assets/Python/BUG/WidgetUtils.py
    /History Rewritten/Assets/Python/Screens/CvMainInterface.py
    /History Rewritten/Assets/XML/Text/HR_Misc_CIV4GameText.py

    Be sure to back up the files you replace, to save having to reinstall 1.20 entirely if you wish to revert the changes or something goes wrong. A few important notes: the Great Person bar on the main screen does not support the new system yet - ignore it. The same is true of any GPP information in the Domestic Advisor (F1). I'm still working on these.

    Many thanks if you're willing to give this a go, it will help development of 1.21 immensely.
     

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  4. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    First problem, not with the new GPP system, but with the changes to how unit data is displayed. Note the "Experience" line in the screenshot.
     

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  5. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Weird, I haven't even touched that as far as I'm aware. It definitely wasn't happening before the GPP patch? Anyway, will try fix it.
     
  6. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    It's also rounding displayed unit strength, which I find annoying.

    There are a couple of display additions to the city screen I like, though. The icons on the build queue and having civ flags to identify who a trade route is with are both nice little touches.

    No actual glitches with the new GPP system to report so far (though none of my test games have gotten past the Classical era yet). Jury's still out on game balance.
     

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  7. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Seems like the area those values are displayed in isn't set wide enough and the strings get truncated. Haven't looked for the cause yet but I will.

    Platyping can take credit for those, borrowed them from his UI mod. Build queue icons could be connected to the aforementioned display issue actually, since they're in the same part of the interface. I might have missed something when merging. Shall investigate.

    I imagine we're going to need to shift specialist slots on buildings around a bit. The other big factor is the GPP threshold system. I've left it at the BTS default for now, but odds are we'll need to adjust it one way or another. Another thing to consider is that a while back I reduced specialists to +2:gp: from :+3:gp:. Perhaps that needs to be reevaluated.
     
  8. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    You might also want to consider adjusting the :gp: output of wonders based on their era. Maybe have the earlier wonders give 1 :gp: and later ones have more.
     
  9. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Well, you can duplicate the effects of +3:health: with +3:food:. Bonus food is slightly stronger, since it improves the growth rate of healthy and unhealthy cities. It's not an ideal fit, flavour-wise, either. But if you want to experiment with doctor specialists in 1.21, a food specialist should be easier to set up. I do think doctors should provide either food or health; we don't really need a second research-oriented specialist.

    Now, I have encountered health-producing doctor specialists in other mods, notably Planetfall. That mod also adds situational bonuses to rioting citizens. It's a Windows-only mod, though, so I'm not sure you can borrow the functionality...

    While we're on the subject, could you get the game to calculate trade route income to two decimal places? HR has lots of fractional trade route bonuses, but they're very often lost to rounding. I've seen this change in lots of places; hopefully, it's not too difficult to implement.

    I haven't had a chance to play with the new system for very long, but I think it works all right. I'd keep the GPP thresholds as they are and bump specialists back to 3:gp:, as much to compensate for the lack of pooling as to underline that Great People are primarily generated by specialists. I still find Cemeteries frustrating, as you're constantly working against the clock on the next Great Prophet, but I've finally found a solution I think we can all agree on. The Palace is the only National Wonder that doesn't generate any passive GPP! So I'd add +1:gp: (Great Prophet) to the Palace, and replace the free priest at Cemeteries with a priest slot.

    I also think the World Wonders that provide free specialists need to be revisited, especially the Great Library, as its undiluted +8:gp: (Great Scientist), plus whatever the city generates, can quickly produce a half-dozen Universities. Here are my suggestions:

    The Oracle, +2:gp: (Great Merchant)
    +100% trade route yield
    (People come from near and far to consult the Oracle. A better fit here than at the Temple of Artemis.)

    Temple of Artemis, +2:gp: (Great Prophet)
    +1:food: from all state :religion: buildings
    (Closer to the Civ5 version. Passive GPP changed to Great Prophet, free priest gone.)

    The Great Library, +2:gp: (Great Scientist)
    1 free technology
    (Identical to Civ5. Free scientists gone.)
     
  10. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Seconding Azoth's proposed wonder changes.

    I also agree with reverting specialists to 3 :gp: each, but I'm less sure about maintaining the current GPP thresholds. In my current test game I've so far managed to hoard all the wonders, but my first five or six great people were all Prophets simply because there are more wonders of that type than any other in the early game.

    I don't think the pools should be completely separate, but how about having the others increment half as fast? So if the first GP is a Prophet, a second Prophet would cost 200 :gp: (assuming standard speed), but any other type would only cost 150 :gp:. If the second GP is another Prophet anyway, then that pool would have a threshold of 300 :gp:, but the others only 200. On the other hand if, say, the leader is Progressive and gets a Scientist second, the Prophet and Scientist pools would each need 250 :gp: to produce another GP, but all the others would still only need 200.
     
  11. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    I think that a food bonus seems rather weird, since a specialist costs a citizen which costs food.
    Instead, a great doctor could have the ability to create an improvement which is a farm, but with one more :food:. Obviously they'd need to have a limit, so what if they started out with some promotions (since they'd have no effect on it — it can't fight) and one was taken every time they built a +1:food: farm so that they could only build as many as they had promotions?
    Obviously that would be unnecessary if there is an easier way.
     
  12. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Hmm. I usually ignore the early game Wonders (or the AI beats me to them) so I haven't run into that problem too often. It's true that if you prioritize early Wonders, and especially if you build most of them in one city, you'll end up with lots of Great Prophets. Removing the free priest at Cemeteries will help somewhat and we may also want to change the Great Person types on certain Wonders. (I'm waiting to see if we go ahead with Great Doctors before making any suggestions, though.)

    Having linked pools as you describe sounds interesting, and I think something similar happens in team games: whenever one teammate produces a Great Person, all other teammates have their thresholds raised by half. But I don't know if that's too complicated for single player or if the city screen can be updated to show multiple pool values. I do think it might be too easy to generate Great People under such a system; so long as you focus on a different type each time, you could produce six Great People for about half the current cost. So, if we do implement that change, I suggest having all pools increase normally except the one just filled, which would increase by one and a half: after the first Great Prophet, a second Prophet would require 250:gp: while all other Great People would take the standard 200:gp:.


    It's a little weird, sure, but specialists that produce +3:food: produce one more food than they consume, increasing a city's growth rate by +1:food:. Bonus health would obviously be more appropriate, but the effect is the same. The question is: if they don't provide food or health, what would ordinary doctor specialists (as opposed to Great Doctors) do?
     
  13. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Such mods achieve it via a DLL change, not an option here. I have an idea how to make specialists provide health or happiness, but the big problem is getting the AI to use them. Basically I'd have to force them to switch an already assigned specialist to a doctor under certain circumstances (e.g., low health, Great Doctor producing wonders present). Achievable in theory.

    Great Doctors providing food does feel weird, but the outcome is similar and has the massive advantage of the AI being able to understand them.

    That would be nightmarish to implement and teach the AI. Despite the challenges, giving Doctor specialists health would be easier.

    That's achieved with a DLL change. The only way I could do it is by calculating the shortfall due to rounding each turn for each city and adding it separately. Fairly doable, but I'd have to investigate what's needed in terms of the UI and AI. Would be worthwhile doing though, added to the wishlist.

    And such a change may even be necessary to solve or replace this problem (which I haven't had a chance to investigate yet). So if we're willing to put up with the weirdness, Doctor specialists will be fairly easy to add to 1.21. The Great Doctor unit will be the more challenging component, depending on what abilities we want it to have.

    Yeah, I'll put them back to +3:gp:. Feels better in my testing.

    Lets try it.


    Definitely.

    Something along these lines, yes.

    Would require some messy custom coding. +1:food: from Priest specialists would require none. Worthwhile alternative?

    I think the combination of +3:gp: specialists, removing the free specialist/priest from the Cemetery, and reassigning some wonders to different :gp: types might mitigate this issue without the need for threshold changes.

    I'd like to see what your (and everyone's) thoughts are on what the Great Doctor unit's abilities could be. That's the last aspect I need to get a feel for before ruling Great Doctor's in or out of 1.21. Assuming we're okay with the specialist providing food instead of health (at least for now),

    Something like this is possible but has potential AI problems. I can't set the AI's 'old' threshold value to whatever I want, like I can with :gp: progress. Ideally, if we can keep BTS' existing threshold mechanics intact, we should. (We can still adjust its numbers, though the formula it uses is a bit restrictive).

    I can probably make it work if we decide it's essential though. Giving each Great Person type its own separate threshold would be preferable from a technical point of view.
     
  14. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    I think Join City, Discover a Technology, Start a Golden Age, Found Corporation, Build a special Building, and 3 special abilities.
     
  15. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    I think that would make Priest specialists too powerful, especially when combined with Ankhor Wat and the Orthodoxy civic.

    How about +1 :food: for all settled Great People and +3 XP for Archery units trained in that city?
     
  16. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Getting back on the original topic of the thread, I've finally found a few minor glitches in the new GPP system.

    First, when you start a new game the :gp: progress bar backgrounds are missing (as seen in the first screenshot). Once you reload the game from a save (including the current turn's autosave) everything works properly.

    Second, the undifferentiated :gp: from the Hebrew Bamah UB do not appear to be added to any of the pools, and therefore seem to be wasted. (I have yet to see what happens if they accumulate 100 :gp: from the Bamah before filling a specialist pool. I suppose I should test that next.) Edit: Tested. Nothing at all happens.
     

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  17. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Agreed.

    That could work. I'm not sure it's the best fit for the Wonder, since you're not likely to have all that many settled Great People for a long time. We could always go with something simpler:

    Temple of Artemis +2:gp: (Great Prophet)
    +10%:food:, +10%:hammers:, +10%:commerce:
    +2XP for Archery units

    This may not be such a bad thing. I always though the Bamah was an absurdly powerful UB, especially for so early in the game. For the time being, we can replace the bonus GPP with +25%:gp: or some such, and review the UBs in full for 1.22.
     
  18. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Progress report: Doctor and Great Doctor specialists are in. The Great Doctor unit is in, albeit with placeholder art and no abilities other than Golden Age, join city, and discover technology. Great Spies and Great Generals can now also discover technology and I've made several adjustments to tech flavours so that each Great Person has a decent range of associated techs. UI has been adjusted to accommodate all this. A few things I need finalized before continuing:

    • Doctor specialist stats (+3:food:? Health not an option for 1.21)
    • Great Doctor specialist stats
    • Threshold mechanic (keep the universal threshold, split it, or some sort of hybrid)​

    I encountered this too. It was quite an elusive bug to track down but I've fixed it.

    Ah yes, my code doesn't consider type-less GPP at all. Nothing will happen if such GPP reach the threshold before one of the defined types. Other than the Bamah, is there anywhere else where type-less GPP is used? If there's nowhere crucial, I'd prefer to just ignore it and ensure all GPP has a defined type.

    I haven't got any comments on the world wonders right now, as I'm reviewing the buildings and national wonders first (including Azoth's espionage suggestions). I'll post a draft when done.

    Looks like there'll be a fair number of building changes needed for 1.21 anyway. We'll leave the UB review for 1.22 but make note of any, like the Bamah, that absolutely need to change as a result of these changes.
     
  19. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    A quick and dirty Draft Three. I haven't included the details of the new Great Person buildings or the technology requirements for each ability, even though I have pretty firm ideas for them. That's to save myself the effort in case certain abilites cannot be implemented or are rejected in the final draft.

    Changes and additions in red, Great Doctor excepted. A few abilities from Draft Two that I considered weak were given two separate effects.

    Great Artist
    1. Great Work
    2. Construct Museum
    3. National Tour: add permanent +1:) and +50:culture: in every city*
    4. Propaganda: trigger counterespionage modifier and set war weariness to zero with all civilizations
    5. Found Barilla, Bombay Dyeing, De Beers
    6. Join City: +3:gold: +8:culture:
    7. Discover Technology, culture flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great Doctor
    1. Inoculation: heal all units and add +1 population in every city
    2. Construct Infirmary
    3. Cultivation: discover random Orchard or Plantation resource
    4. Humanitarian: +1 relations with all civilizations
    5. Found General Mills, Nestle
    6. Join City: +3:food: +3:science:
    7. Discover Technology, growth flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great Engineer
    1. Hurry Production
    2. Construct Ironworks
    3. Prospector: discover random Mine or Well resource
    4. Resupply: restore attack and movement of all units and restore defense of all cities
    5. Found Rio Tinto, Toyota, Vinci
    6. Join City: +3:hammers: +3:gold:
    7. Discover Technology, production flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great General
    1. Warlord
    2. Construct Armory
    3. Excavate: discover random Quarry resource
    4. Rally: recruit 1 conscript for every 2 population in target city
    5. Purge: eliminate all non-state religions in all cities
    6. Join City: +2XP for all units
    7. Discover Technology, military flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great Merchant
    1. Trade Mission
    2. Construct Mint
    3. Harvest: discover random Farm or Lumbermill resource
    4. Monetary Policy: permanent -20% inflation
    5. Found East India Company, Hudson Bay, McDonalds
    6. Join City: +1:food: +6:gold:
    7. Discover Technology, gold flavour
    8. Start Golden Age
    + may explore rival territory

    Great Prophet
    1. Found Religion
    2. Construct Shrine
    3. Pilgrimage: spread state religion to 6 cities in empire and 3 foreign cities**
    4. Mediator: end all wars against player and prevent rivals from resuming war for 10 turns
    5. Conversion: halve foreign culture in every city
    6. Join City: +2:science: +2:gold: +2:culture: +2:espionage:
    7. Discover Technology, religion flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great Scientist
    1. Encyclopedia: +25% progress towards each technology known by at least 1 known civilization
    2. Construct University
    3. Husbandry: discover random Camp or Pasture resource
    4. Expedition: add permanent +1:health: in every city and reveal World Map of all known civilizations
    5. Found Aramco, BASF, NISSUI
    6. Join City: +1:hammers: +6:science:
    7. Discover Technology, science flavour
    8. Start Golden Age

    Great Spy
    1. Infiltrate
    2. Construct Intelligence Agency
    3. Plunder: steal 25% of the treasury of all known civilizations
    4. Neutralize: steal 25% of the espionage points of all civilizations directed against the player
    5. Coup: target city must have majority player culture; target city joins empire
    6. Join City: +3:science: +8:espionage:
    7. Discover Technology, espionage flavour
    8. Start Golden Age
    + may explore rival territory, invisible to all units

    *scales according to game speed
    **scales according to world size

    Notes
    • Priests don't have a primary yield or commerce type, so I propose we make them jack-of-all-trades specialists instead of weakish Engineers, with +1:science: +1:gold: +1:culture: and +1:espionage:. Settled Great Prophets will have double those values. Great Prophets should also be consumed when founding a religion, in keeping with every other ability, but the holy city for the religion should remain random; otherwise players will always choose the capital, which gets enough bonuses as it is.
    • I don't think we need two production-oriented National Wonders, the Ironworks and the Refinery, so I suggest we retool the Ironworks as the Great Engineer's unique building. It's a better choice than the Assembly Plant or Industrial Park because it can be unlocked in the late Medieval/early Renaissance. Obviously, it's bonuses will be reduced significantly.
    • Great Doctors can found General Mills and Nestle. Taiyo is accordingly moved to the Great Scientist. As a side note, I could not find any information about the Taiyo corporation. It seems to be the only one to keep the generic logo from BtS. Might I suggest an alternative name: Nippon Suisan Kaisha, more commonly known as NISSUI?
    • The Mint is intended to be a turbo-charged version of the current Market, with +10%:commerce: per precious metal. That will let the Market return to +25%:gold: if we so choose. For the Malinese UB, I suggest the Bazaar; not an inspired choice, I know, but all reports of that empire stressed its wealth and vibrant trade centres, which the Bazaar represents.
    • We might also want to rename the National Museum, the National Gallery to avoid conflict with the Great Artist's Museum.
     
  20. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    You can always give the doctor some python effects if you don't like giving it too much food, since it is really weird for a specialist to produce more food than it consumes.

    Example:
    Doctor +1 Food.
    Units built have 5% Chance Per Doctor to gain Medic I Promotion
    If Units already have Medic I, give it Medic II or March or whatever appropriate.
     

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