Great person farm advice?

vintage_gamer

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Civ 4 (vanilla) is the 1st game in the series I tried. I've read through about the 2 most recent pages of threads but can't seem to get past Noble. The game I'm playing now is noble, huge, continents, Indian woman (spiritual organized) as leader.

What could I do differently to be better? I conquered the Aztecs (Cuzco & a few other cities in tundra) in the BCs. I'm pretty sure now I shoulda torched most of those instead of keeping them. The only other thing I've wondered about is my great person farm. Once I had my 1st 4 cities (Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Bangalore) I thought Bangalore should be my GPF. I wonder if that was smart because it has a fair amount of desert and would have had a lot more desert if I positioned it so it would have a food resource in the 1st ring.

Basically I think I got a pretty lousy starting area. I hate regenerating the map until I get a decent start so here I am asking what I should've done differently.
 

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Major Tom

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A couple of screenshots would help, especially from city screen of GP farm. Desert and GP farm does not sound well. Food source in inner ring should not matter as long it is in BFC. Tourch and rebuild is rather expensive hammervise. Did your economy crash? Keep an eye on your traderoutes. Currency should have high priority.
 

Major Tom

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When you start new game, post the opening screen and plan your progress. People is likely to move along with you.
 

lymond

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VG - Welcome to Civ and Civ IV (best game of all time)

Not certain - but I assume you purchased a "Complete" addition of the game. If so, I highly recommend that you just go straight to playing BTS as it is the ultimate version of the game, and the one most folks play here. In other words, think of BTS as the completed Civ IV.

I have not looked at your save - and hope you scrap the game for BTS anyway - but as for GP farms it really boils down to food. A few desert tiles(not flood plains which are great) are not a big deal for any city really (except maybe your cap). What is important is that you have at least two if not 3 strong food tiles in the city. That's really all there is to it. Bottom line is that when you are ready to run quite a few specialists you will have the food and growth to do so. Of course, I suspect you don't quite know what to do with great people yet anyway (although it is interesting that you are using the term "GP farm", so I suppose you have been reading up..ha

Anyway, fire up BTS and post a starting save. Best way to learn outside of watching videos is to post game here and get frequent advice as you play turns.

Also, I recommend just using normal settings and maps for now. Bigger is not always better and playing huge maps creates issue for new players among other things. Normal setting in Civ IV provide more than a satisfactory gaming experience. Learn the basics of the game first before you try to make things bigger and harder for yourself.
 

DrCron

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Hi,

As other said, you should get the complete edition, the game is way better with Beyond the Sword. It was $1 in a humble bundle a couple of weeks ago, and on Steam sales it's usually around $3.

Anyway, I took a quick look at your game, a few things:

- Bangalore is an ok great people farm, but Cuzco is way better.
- Your capital should have cottages on those river grassland tiles instead of farms.
- You can get your cities closer to each other.
- Don't build marketplaces.
- Research should be binary after libraries: 0% or 100%.
- And finally, if you are attacking with axemen and swordsmen on 800 AD something is really wrong. I recommend uploading a game on turn 1 and asking for tips. Uploading screenshots helps. And of course with BTS, since pretty much everyone here will have the complete edition of the game nowadays.

Oh, and Asoka wasn't a woman.
 

vintage_gamer

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Okay guys, I'm starting a new game as you recommend. Noble, pangeae, normal size, medium sea level, solid coastline, George Washington as leader. It seems to me I've got a pretty good start. I thought building my 1st city right under the rice would be decent? The pig is a bit more of a head-scratcher, being on a hill, but being a food resource you might as well take advantage. And then there are the 2 FP so I'd get the food benefit without any health penalty. Throw in some few riverside grasslands, and a few hills for efficient hammer generation, and I think that's a pretty good GFP candidate already. Am I anywhere near the mark?

Let's say I'm completely wrong about my city placement. I imagine you wouldn't want to wait more than a couple turns before settling somewhere, since waiting to build your first city delays everything.

Hi,

- You can get your cities closer to each other.
- Don't build marketplaces.

Good to know about city placement. I guess I didn't want 2 cities to fight over a half-decent tile. So do you mean it's more important to just have some city working each half-decent tile, even if it means 2 slightly smaller cities rather than 1 great one? Typically how many tiles should overlap between cities? I imagine I should improve at least 1 of those overlapping tiles to give my next city a jumpstart.

About the marketplaces - fair enough. I did that because I didn't want to whip and hurt my research output. Good to know.

- Research should be binary after libraries: 0% or 100%.
- And finally, if you are attacking with axemen and swordsmen on 800 AD something is really wrong. I recommend uploading a game on turn 1 and asking for tips. Uploading screenshots helps. And of course with BTS, since pretty much everyone here will have the complete edition of the game nowadays.

Really? Rounding for the research level makes a noticeable difference? Huh. Good to know.

And now that you mention it I see what you mean about axemen and 800 AD.

About Asoka not being a woman - you made me curious. So Asoka came to control basically all of the subcontinent that is India that has awesome terrain for ambushes? Not too shabby, I gotta say.

Also - I know screenshots would make it much easier to give me feedback, but I can't seem to take helpful ones. Steam says to hit F12, but that just means I take a screenshot of some part of the civpedia. Not too helpful...
 

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DrCron

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Could you confirm whether you are still with vanilla or you are playing the complete edition now? That way I know which game to open to check you game. If you don't have the complete edition yet, keep in mind 2K has a sale this weekend.

In the meantime:

Typically how many tiles should overlap between cities?

Overlapping is always worth it, especially cottage tiles. You want every cottage tile to be worked by a city so it's always growing (cottages grow to hamlets-villages-towns only when they are being worked). Sharing tiles also gives you more flexibility for micro management. There's no problem if your cities are no more than 4 tiles away from each other. Some cities might even be only 3 tiles away from the closest neighbor.

About the marketplaces - fair enough. I did that because I didn't want to whip and hurt my research output

After currency you can simply "build" gold when you have no useful buildings left (which is very often). Marketplaces hardly every give back the investment they require, so building gold is almost always more efficient.

Rounding for the research level makes a noticeable difference? Huh. Good to know

A quick example: Let's say we count turns 101-110 and you are producing 10 commerce per turn in this city (to make it easy). You are getting a library done on turn 106. The library gives you +25% research.
If you spend all 10 turns at 50% -> 5 turns with 5 beakers per turn + 5 turns with 6.25 = 25 + 31.25 = 56.25 beakers
If you spend the 1st 5 turns at 0% (saving money) and then 5 turns at 100% -> 5 turns with 0 beakers per turn + 5 turns with 12.5 = 62.50 beakers
So, you need to save money if you see that you are about to finish libraries in a few turns. It works even better with the academy and/or universities (if you build them) or Oxford.

Binary research also has a good synergy with failgold from wonders or other sources (begging through diplomacy, invading cities, etc.).

I know screenshots would make it much easier to give me feedback, but I can't seem to take helpful ones. Steam says to hit F12, but that just means I take a screenshot of some part of the civpedia

Weird, I can get CIV 4 screenshots with the Steam shortcut without issues. If F12 takes you to the civpedia, change the shortcut on Steam, you can do it in the settings menu (I changed it to a key I never press for anything else and it works ok).
 

lymond

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Cron..look at his save file closely ;)

and yes, change the steam shortcut for screenshots. Just add like ctl +alt or something
 

vintage_gamer

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I can't seem to to save a screenshot with an acceptable picture extension. Will post a couple when I can.
 

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elmurcis

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Cron..look at his save file closely ;)

and yes, change the steam shortcut for screenshots. Just add like ctl +alt or something
Huh, had no idea it can be something else..."by default" (non-changed) its "Print Screen" key for me :D
 

DrCron

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Ok, I played your map a little bit, looks like you added several civs on a tiny map because every one is ridiculously close. Unfortunately it's not a good map for an efficient GPP farm. Here's how it went:

Spoiler :

SIP gets a nice spot for a capital, with many river tiles that can be cottaged. Too bad that rice is dry.



Turn 13: China and Netherlands are extremely close. 2nd city will be 1S of horses, to get a chariot rush ASAP. This means the capital can't work the pigs so forget about making it a GPP farm (also, you probably want cottages on that capital anyway, for bureaucracy later). If I was to expand peacefully gold city would be number 3, and a city between the corn and the pigs would be number 4 (if gold city didn't need the pigs, this last one could have been a decent GPP farm).



I forgot what it was to play with events on. I'm definitely going for a chariot rush.



On 1880 BC I get Aesthetics from a hut. Nice, but it gets me to classical era so goodbye chariot quest.



1480 BC I attack China. It's late because I built barracks, but since this is noble it's still ok. China doesn't have archers yet so the PRO trait won't make a difference.



1200 BC China is no more and I have 2 new cities. My initial 2 cities are only building chariots since I'm attacking Netherlands next.



1040 BC I DOW Willy.



950 BC Netherlands is no more and I have 6 cities. No AI has more than 3 cities.I'm still settling gold city, while NY keeps building chariots because...



Frederick doesn't have archery yet, so Germany will be invaded soon. If I'm fast enough he won't have time to build spearmen, and I can easily deal with axemen. Swordsmen might be a pain, but I'm not even sure if he has iron, so I know I can take at least one city from him. Maybe later I can get IW from him as part of the peace deal, if I don't have enough chariots to completely destroy him.



And that's it. After destroying Germany I would probably go straight to construction to build some catapults and conquer the rest of the world.


Not a good map to learn about GPP generation, but a good one to remember that the chariot rush is very strong all the way up to Monarch.
 

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vintage_gamer

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Okay, I'm starting a new game now (BTS). Tokugawa (Japanese) on continents, normal size & speed on noble. I mean to go for a spaceship victory. Because I'm only playing noble I was going to try to avoid war until I get riflemen.

I took a screenshot of my starting position but can't find it. I play BTS through Steam so I guess I can't find the folder Steam keeps them in.

Basically I think my starting position is a dream GPF (I know by now I need to learn way more than just GP; this is just how I look at my position). I'm on the coast with 2 crab visible. I have 2 grass corn; 1 is wet, being beside a lake. Both corns and 1 crab are in the 1st ring. In the 2nd ring I have 2 forested grass hills and 1 forested plains hill. To round things out I've got 2 plains and 5 grass (all forested), 3 coast (no ocean), and 2 unknown tiles. My settler starts on 1 of the forested grass and 3 other forested grass have access to the lake.

Edit: With all the forest I'm pretty sure I should research fishing, mining, BW and start building a worker (interrupting with a workboat when I get fishing)

Does this give you guys enough to offer any thoughts?

This'll be my 1st attempt at a space victory, so I was thinking I'd stop researching once I got infantry, tanks, sam infantry, and artillery.
 

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lymond

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f there is no popup for the screenshots when you exit the game, use the "View" menu item and select "Screenshots to view it. I use the "Show on Disk" button to open right to the WE folder, and drag it over to Imgur. Like so:

Spoiler VG's Toku Start :


Toku starts with Fishing. You have two strong food resources which are both superior to crabs, so I recommend AG>BW here, with straight up worker first. You can chop 1wb probably for now after improving corns and getting BW, but no urgency on the WB. You probably want a couple of warriors and start settler at size 3 or 4. With wet corn and a dry corn, I'd probably look to 2pop (size 4) that first settler - you could time that with a chop for the first WB. Having netted clams to grow back onto at that point not bad to have 3rd strong improve tile and some commerce.

Oh..and once you grow off the corns, don't be afraid to work the crab tile (or lake) some too for some extra commerce to speed up BW. It's slightly less hammers into settler but you are going to whip it anyway. You can adjust the 3rd and 4th citizens between commerce and forests to boost production a bit. Remember you need =>40h into settler for 2popper

BW will likely not arrive until a bit after the corns are finished, so some idle turns, but still stronger play to get worker out first in this condition. Plus Toke starts with wheel so you could start some roads to potential city in meantime.

Because I'm only playing noble I was going to try to avoid war until I get riflemen

I'll first ask what your logic is behind this decision, before expanding on a response.
 
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vintage_gamer

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Sounds like I'm way off base lymond, but I wanted to address 1 aspect of my game play at a time. I get the impression, though, that this would be a rather idiotic idea when it comes to expanding. Good to know.

And I'm not taking offense. I'm frustrated with being basically stuck on Noble. So I've decided to take the mindset that I don't really know anything. Anytime I do something correctly it's coincidence.

I decided to go with Tokugawa because you guys said he's about as generic a leader as there is. Going for a space win would basically negate his aggressive characteristic. This would force me to actually improve my skill at the game, rather than just taking advantage of special conditions.

I'm here to learn, not to get help with hypothetical self-esteem issues.
 
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lymond

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And I'm not taking offense..

I would certainly hope not ;) Nothing like that even crosses my mind. I'm just giving you feedback. Let that sheet go...

I think going Space is fine, but want to be clear that Space games do not preclude warfare. In fact, often quite the opposite. Space is about getting more land. However, early warfare is situational by many factors. Point on Leaders/traits and stuff we were making elsewhere is that it is basically irrelevant to what you do. Sure some traits are stronger than others, but that is far from your concern as a new player right now. Still, Toke is more than a fine choice as a generic leaders.

(oh..and agg and protective are not the best traits for warfare)

On Continents, if going space, you could kill the continent depending on who is there, or settle for expanding and conquering one or two (depending on how many) leaving another for trade routes and trading, although semi-iso trading is generally a poor option unless Friends or Mansa.

Or you could just rexx if a good amount of solid land to expand into, with a focus of breaking out later. Generally though, at some point earlier then later it is better to own that land yourself. And on Noble, when doing things effectively, this should not be hard.

But first things first...learning. No need to over-complicate the long terms aspect of the game, but focus on the all important early game expansion and basic mechanics.

So let's just stick to getting you set up now with a good start, and then plan long term stuff later. Again, some decisions may change based on the situation
 

Fippy

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Lymond still awake ~~

Yup not sure if you already memorized them, knowing tile yield helps a lot when learning.
Corn with water access = 6 food, without water (called dry) = 5 food.
Crab are only +4, while still good tiles and they also add a bit commerce you should always look at corn first.
So no worker interrupting for workboats, if you would research fishing :)
 

vintage_gamer

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I've recently discovered Ag and started on mining. No worries, I knew that would take a bit of time.

This is the area my warrior explored:
upload_2017-3-29_11-53-26.jpeg


I've uncovered a fair amount of grass and hills along with a bit more food. No luxury resources yet, though. I don't think devoting turns to building things like temples just so my cities can get a little bigger is a particularly smart play. So in this situation would you rush Raggy pretty early, with axes/ swords/ whatever?

Edit: Let's say it turns out I have no horse, copper, iron, or elephant and can't trade for them. Would I have any alternative to racing to artillery & rifling? Longbowmen are good on defence but aren't especially good for boosting your power rating. (I'm pretty sure that warriors, having 2 strength, count as 2000 soldiers, archers count as 3000, ...) So while a longbowman's bonuses certainly give it a decent chance in many circumstances, building just them would tend to lead to a high risk of being DOWed.

Also, how do you conceal pictures in your posts (so I have to click "show to see the shot)?
 
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Major Tom

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I've recently discovered Ag and started on mining. No worries, I knew that would take a bit of time.

This is the area my warrior explored:
View attachment 468100

I've uncovered a fair amount of grass and hills along with a bit more food. No luxury resources yet, though. I don't think devoting turns to building things like temples just so my cities can get a little bigger is a particularly smart play. So in this situation would you rush Raggy pretty early, with axes/ swords/ whatever?

Also, how do you conceal pictures in your posts (so I have to click "show to see the shot)?
To insert a spoiler, use third (on my device) button from right.
Ragnar is a nasty fellow as a neighbour, he will attack rather soon. Watch out where his stack is moving and get your axes ready. Have a spearman in your stack if he got horses. Teching to Bronze Working is a good move.
 

lymond

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ooh! that corn tile looks ripe for a worker steal in a few turns :D

I would not be overly concerned about Rags at the moment. You'll need to find copper or horses anyway before decision like that are made. Let's get up a couple of cities first.

With this food, switch to slavery when BW completes and prepare a 2pop settler whip at size 4. Build a warrior or two after the worker.

No need to scout much more N than your current position. Worker steal is up to you. New warriors can scout coast E and W, and surrounding areas.
 
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