Great Recession of 2020

[Broken_Erika]

So the question remains: What does "westernized" mean?

This?

Spoiler :

 

[Birdjaguar]

Depending on what you actually want to talk about there's likely to be something more precise you can say

Is China westernized?

 

[Arwon]

Well, that depends on what you mean.

 

[Arwon]

They like basketball, there's one thing

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, that depends on what you mean.

Yes I know. There is some disagreement in the posts above about what that means.

 

[AmazonQueen]

What makes you think China has 'westernized'? Surely there is more to 'western' culture than the tacky consumerism the Chinese upper class have enthusiastically adopted?

Complacency and arrogance?
Fascism was a Western gift to the world too.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I believe that in China, they refer to it using terminology that
best translates into modernisation, not westernisation.

 

[Cutlass]

Hindsight is 20/20. It was a 20+year process that began under Reagan. That move to China also enabled China to westernize and build a middle class. The shifting of manufacturing offshore grew the standard of living for many millions of people all over the world and not just China. It was a global event of great significance and value. By focusing on only the "but where are we today?" question, you ignore 40 years of change throughout the world. You should be asking: "How do we best move forward from here?"

Business did not move to China to westernize China. Trade with China opened up to try and westernize China. But the reason so many businesses moved is to wreck American labor and environmental regulations.

In China there is the rule of law too. You may not agree with the laws they have, but they do have them and they tend to be followed.

NK also has the rule of law.

"Rule of Law" does not mean that there is a government which makes and enforces laws. It means that there is a free and fair process which makes and enforces laws, and that those laws apply to everyone. If you have a political leadership which makes, and changes, whatever laws they want at will, and enforces them however best benefits them, that's not the rule of law.

 

[Hrothbern]

If a new government changes the Laws so that everybody who did not vote on the ruling political party was a traitor of the nation deserving the death penalty...
the necessary changes to laws and the constitution can all be done within the rules of the old laws and old constitution.

For me one of the main reasons why I believe in a bicameral system with qualified majorities AND time locks for changes of the Constitution.
The time locks to force that changes are confirmed by newly chosen cammers of the bicameral system.
The hype of the day of one election of a uni-cameral systyem should never be able to change a constitution.

 

[Ajidica]

The most defining aspects of western culture are its prosperity and technical advancement. I think China, Japan, Singapore, NZ, OZ, Israel, SK all would qualify as westernized.

First, my understand was that outside of the major cities, China is still quite poor - to say nothing of the large number of migrant workers in the cities.
Second, defining 'western culture' in purely material terms seems a bit, well, materialistic. Surely a belief in representative democracy and social liberalism are more important to our conception of western culture?

 

[Birdjaguar]

First, my understand was that outside of the major cities, China is still quite poor - to say nothing of the large number of migrant workers in the cities.
Second, defining 'western culture' in purely material terms seems a bit, well, materialistic. Surely a belief in representative democracy and social liberalism are more important to our conception of western culture?

So our Republican party run US government removes us from western culture?

 

[Ajidica]

So our Republican party run US government removes us from western culture?

I would say the current Republican Party is hostile to western culture, yes.
But to avoid going insane, I have to hope that a clear majority of Americans still believe in representative democracy and social liberalism.

 

[Cutlass]

So our Republican party run US government removes us from western culture?

They certainly would if they could.

 

[Estebonrober]

So our Republican party run US government removes us from western culture?

This was pretty much exactly my point. The South in the US had an adoration for aristocracy, the Republican Party now carries that torch. For me, those run counter to post enlightenment "westernism". China seems to very much be in the vein of the old world way of running things. Instead of a divine Emperor they go with a the divine Party.

 

[innonimatu]

No the most defining aspect of westernization is recourse to the law. At least for the wealthy, they do not have that in China. Their Bezos himself was abducted for like two weeks without explanation.

Try asking Assange about how the recourse to the law works...
What you are actually saying above is that the most defining aspect of westernization is plutocracy. The wealthy can buy "access" to the law. The others... good luck if they're up against a government or someone powerful.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

So the rule of law isn't a trait of westernization; it is representation? In the US only political parties choose who will run for office. Anyone can vote in state and national elections, but only actual party candidates will usually win. In China they have elections and the state party puts up its candidates who then get elected. Those elected represent the members of the party (just like in the US). anyone can join the party. China has all kinds of civil laws that its people can engage in. You seem to oppose it political laws mostly around those that limit speech.

Percent or total people? Total US population: 330 million and about 40 million of those are in poverty.

Urban China is pretty well off. Rural not so much. In 20 years China has moved hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Globalization did that.

1. There are multiple definitions of “Western” and China does not fit most of them. The main definitions are geographical or WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic). China is culturally distinct (Confucian philosophy is at odds with western philosophy), geographically east, on average poor, and is most certainly NOT democratic.
2. Globalization did NOT lift significantly more Chinese persons out of poverty than their revolution drug down into poverty.

 

[Estebonrober]

Try asking Assange about how the recourse to the law works...
What you are actually saying above is that the most defining aspect of westernization is plutocracy. The wealthy can but "access" to the law. The others... good luck if they're up against a government or someone powerful.

You're right of course, because there are flaws in our system we should revert to the aristocratic divinely empowered systems of old. ffs man I even said it is largely for the wealthy (this is important distinction that it is there at all btw), but even that said the poor do at least get representation. My understanding of China is you just disappear for whatever reason the party decides. Maybe you re appear one day, maybe not. No one knows.

 

[cardgame]

China is culturally distinct (Confucian philosophy is at odds with western philosophy)

If you'd like to expand on this I'd like to hear it

Globalization did NOT lift significantly more Chinese persons out of poverty than their revolution drug down into poverty.

Are you sure about that? China was not exactly known for being anything except everybody's poor punching bag.

 

[Birdjaguar]

2. Globalization did NOT lift significantly more Chinese persons out of poverty than their revolution drug down into poverty.

You couldn't be more wrong. You should read the links i posted earlier about just how massive a change has taken place in China over the past 30 years. What you think of their current government isn't relevant to the reduction of poverty and the improved prosperity for hundreds of millions of people. The US by comparison fails miserable at reducing poverty while China raises 400 million people out of poverty in a decade. Globalization enabled them to do that. In the US globalization has enriched the richest more than anyone else. Single point comparisons are problematic, but they can highlight dramatic success too.

 

[innonimatu]

You're right of course, because there are flaws in our system we should revert to the aristocratic divinely empowered systems of old. ffs man I even said it is largely for the wealthy (this is important distinction that it is there at all btw), but even that said the poor do at least get representation. My understanding of China is you just disappear for whatever reason the party decides. Maybe you re appear one day, maybe not. No one knows.

We're better off than China but let's not pretend that we have a good "equality before the law" in the west either. There are things to improve, that won't be improved if we pretend they're fine.