Great Scientist usage suggestion ...

[Uncle E]

Aloha all,

I've been reading alot on these forums and find everything very helpful. I have a question on the best usage of great scientists. I'm playing a warlord/noble level game as the Incas and have a decent sized empire w/ a Great Library built in my capital running Bureaucracy and cottage spammed on 5~6 floodplains. I have a decent tech lead (for once) and have built up my infrastructure while keeping on top of the power chart (luckily).

My question is: since I've been getting alot of GS (3 or 4 so far), what would you do with the additional GS after using the first one to build an academy in your capital? I decided to merge them into my other bigger beaker cities that boosted the beaker count from about 50 to 75 or so on 3 other cities so far. Would it have been better to keep merging them into my capital as their bonuses would get multiplied more (w/ civics and buildings)? By chance I had alot of excess food and am running 3 scientists on the side in my capital as my population has hit a health barrier there.

Mahalos
E

 

[ChicagoCubs]

Your choices are...

1. Lightbulb a tech
2. Build Academy
3. Super scientist

I rarely lightbuld a tech, but I understand that it is vital to do it at strategic research moments on higher difficulties to be the first to get a technology.

I only build one or two academies in my best science cities. After that, I use the GS as a super scientist in my cities that have the academies.

 

[svv]

After putting academies in 2 or 3 top beaker-producing cities, you'll want to put your super-scientists in whatever city you'll eventually build Oxford. This may well be your capital, but it's the city that will eventually generate the most commerce (assuming you're keeping your commerce slider set to science rather than counting on just specialists for your science).

Take a look at your list of cities to see which is generating the most commerce, and look at some of the higher ones to see if they could be #1 with some more development.

 

[Uncle E]

Thanks,

Since my research rate later in the game was decent enough where lightbulbing them was a waste, i ended up using them for academies ... I think next time I'm gonna make a super beaker capital - Is the great library that powerful? wow ... I see the recommendation to build it all the time, but I've never seen its impact until this game somehow. Mebbe I'm finally putting all the great advice together!

SVV - thanks .... oh yah, btw I was able to get back to 100% research on the slider after i couldnt expand more by building the spiral minaret, Kashi Wishwanath w/ 2 hindu buildings in each city - i gotta have a better strategy for maxing out research on the next game ... i sometimes get haphazard in building wonders etc.

 

[futurehermit]

Lightbulb techs. Good ones: Philosophy, Paper, Education, Printing Press, Chemistry, etc.

 

[Softnum]

Someone proved once too that you're almost always better off Super Specialisting your GSes as opposed to more academies in less-then-super-science cities.

 

[Elandal]

I saw a note that you should have 60 raw beakers (before multipliers) before the academy is better than settling. As I run cottage economy most of the time, my own rule of thumb is that a city needs 10 cots before it's a candidate for academy, but as every rule this needs to be broken every now and then

 

[Wodan]

I saw a note that you should have 60 raw beakers (before multipliers) before the academy is better than settling.

It's not that simple. If you're running Representation, everything changes. Also, even if you don't have Oxford yet, you will at some point, and this should be considered as well.

Wodan

 

[Elandal]

Pyramids changes everything as usual
However, while representation changes the number of beakers per specialist (2x scientist = 12 bpt under rep), it does nothing to the multipliers. It only changes cottage / scientist balance (towards more scientists and less cottages).

So you can get 60 raw beakers in many ways. Maybe you get 12C from trade routes, 48C from tiles, and run the slider at 100% (OK, you need more commerce). Or maybe you have GL and run rep + caste with 5 extra scientists (total now 7 x 6 or 42 beakers) and get some more from trade and for working riverside food. Or maybe you're running bureuacracy and with the 50% commerce boost your capitol easily gets 60 raw beakers?

Still, I'm not saying that you need 60 raw beakers now. Just that the city should "fairly soon" reach that. A city that won't get 60 raw beakers ever doesn't really look like an academy site, but one that is already working half a dozen cots and will get to a dozen given calendar happiness (or other happiness) just needs some time as the cots mature and free speech will eventually make it a commerce monster.

Oxford changes two things again: multiplier, and #scientists the city can run (without caste). Unless we're talking about food-heavy city, it'll be hard to get past the two scientists anyway (pre-biology - when you do hit bio you can again run more specialists). So Oxford should eventually be built by a city that benefits at least from one of those, preferably both (eg. those dozen cottages and 2-3 food resources). Incidentally, this city is likely to be good science city already before Oxford is built, so academy is likely to be in order in any case


My basic reasoning behind setting some rule of thumb for academy is that I probably (hopefully) will be getting several Great Scientists in the game. And I can do many things with them: academies, settling, bulbing, golden ages. Spending a scientist for a GA seems like major waste, but the other three have their uses, and a choice between the three must be made.

Lightbulb: instant benefit. That is, if I can bulb something that is useful either directly as a tech for me, or for trading, or even for both. If my research is very strong, bulbing might not be that useful and academy is more likely even in case where bulbing is a strong option. However, getting those beakers NOW, not during the next 100 turns, is often a big benefit.

Academy: if I have a strong science city (or one with lots of potential in the future) and don't have an academy yet, this is a very good choice.

Settling: If I have a city with an academy, I'll consider my other cities. I might have more than one strong science city, so maybe more than one academy is in order. However, once the major science city has been marked and academified, the beaker multipliers will make settling a strong option. While an academy provides +25% beakers, a settled GS provides 6 to be multiplier. Assuming library, university, two monasteries and oxford, we're talking about roughly 200% (and while the monasteries will be obsoleted, observatory will cover the gap keeping it at around 200%), so settling would be around 18bpt - 27 with representation. In the future. Maybe 9 (library + academy) to 17 (rep + library + academy + 2x monastery) now. For 25% multiplier to be better, four times that would be needed in raw beakers, which comes to 35-75 now, 75-105 in the future. Better be a strong second science city for settling in primary science city to lose against second academy.

The hardest dilemma is with the first one, assuming bulbing isn't a direct winner. Do I have a strong enough science city already, or is my Oxford city still in the jungles waiting to be settled (or inconveniently for now in the hands of an opponent, maybe called "Cuzco" or something like that)? Is one of my current cities going to be a strong enough science city that academy would be best?

I really hate storing the great people for the future. Each turn they spend sleeping in my capitol is a turn they coulde've provided hammers, beakers, gold.. settled, bulbed, using special ability. But at times I really can't find an academy site in my early empire, and still have ways to go until bulbing would be good enough, so maybe settling now would be best overall?

 

[obsolete]

I rarely lightbulb my great people. I suppose this would change if I could CHOOSE what to bulb them on. such as my current tech I'm reseraching. So far on monarch, I prefer to absorb my people into my cities asap. Though I will use a great scientist to make a single academy when I first can.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Lightbulb techs. Good ones: Philosophy, Paper, Education, Printing Press, Chemistry, etc.

Bingo. You should have no problem getting liberalism first with this strategy. Plus quicker education means quicker Oxford which is the same as TWO acadamies in your best science city.

Then trade the techs for what you skipped.

I will say that it took me awhile to get a feel for this strategy. Before I saw how you could do this, I would build a couple acadamies and then super-specialists. I dont think thats bad...but lightbulbing the techs above is superior imo.

 

[Uncle E]

Thanks for all of the great replies!
I was wondering how important the Great Library was in this overall thread? I know it adds 2 scientists, but those dont contribute the same amount as a GS does right?

I've recently moved up to the noble difficulty setting and am a bit more comfortable w/ the overall tech race making sure that i combine aggressive cottage spamming (incas!), coastal cities/collossus, good expansion (i used to be slow and always run at 90~100% research), and getting the great library / academy / Bureaucracy combo along w/ using my great people to pop techs, merge or academies. Thanks for all the advice.

happy new year!

 

[Elandal]

The free scientist specialists GL gives are normal scientists but don't count against your limit (eg. with just Library and GL you can run 4 scientists total).

The biggest deal with GL is not the beakers it gives, but the GS GPPs - you get 2 for the GL itself, 6 more for the two scientists. That's 8 GPPs, all of them GS flavoured, from a single wonder. Can't beat that one.

I seem to have trouble generating scientists though. How do people get them? Run caste system? Or simply run 2 scientists in as many cities as have food for them? Or do you need to play philo leader to get the 3-4 GS you need to bulb through the liberalism path (1 for philo, 1 for paper, 2 for edu - can research paper or half edu as well, preferably not both though)?

 

[Wodan]

The free scientist specialists GL gives are normal scientists but don't count against your limit (eg. with just Library and GL you can run 4 scientists total).

The biggest deal with GL is not the beakers it gives, but the GS GPPs - you get 2 for the GL itself, 6 more for the two scientists. That's 8 GPPs, all of them GS flavoured, from a single wonder. Can't beat that one.

I seem to have trouble generating scientists though. How do people get them? Run caste system? Or simply run 2 scientists in as many cities as have food for them? Or do you need to play philo leader to get the 3-4 GS you need to bulb through the liberalism path (1 for philo, 1 for paper, 2 for edu - can research paper or half edu as well, preferably not both though)?

Early in the game, you pick 3-5 cities, whip Libraries, and run 2 scientists in each. As each generates a GS, turn off the scientists if you like (that city almost certainly won't generate another GS in time to be useful). When you can, run Pacifism.

Later, you can build the National Epic and run Caste System.

Later still, you can build Observatory and Oxford, and don't need Caste System as much.

just some ideas.... YMMV

Wodan

 

[Elandal]

Hmm... Maybe I should expand more early on - I usually go to three cities (one production, one science, one probably for copper or horse, could be science, production, or hybrid). With three cities I can run slider fairly high, with four it depends a lot on city spacing (very early on distance maintenance is the biggest single factor, so if I can shave a gold there I can have fourth without troubles).
With just three cities, one of which is building barracks and units, I can't really run two scientists in 3-5 cities :/

Caste.. That depends a lot. Because it means not running slavery, and without slavery I won't be getting much infrastructure. Then again, I'm probably going for too much infra anyway so maybe that's not as big a deal as it feels.

Obviously when I get Oxford things change. Just need a city with lots of food for it - and preferably one that is highly cottable still (usually end up carving that out of the jungles - cleared of the shrubberies I get a lot of good green grass and usually can settle with 2 food resources). But at that point liberalism race is no longer an issue. Not that there wouldn't be uses for scientists still

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

You should be able to get a gs or two by building a library early and running both scientist specialists right away. Dont run any other specialists in that city and it will be a gs. The problem I sometimes run into is if I run those gs specialists after Ive built some wonders. Then its a race between my gpp from my wonder city against my library city. Even then you should be able do ding a gs as your second gp.

As for later on, the same startegy works. National epic will obviously speed things up with pacifism. Caste System is really good at farming out one as well. You run six gs specialists in your national epic city plus pacifism...you'll start churing out gs.

Of course getting the great library helps. If you prioritize alphabet, you should be one of the first (if not the first) to it. The next tech you go for can be literature, and its a cheap tech. Build/whip/chop the great library. Then throw national epic in the same city, run two great library specialists from the library, run pacifism. Thats a lot of great scientist points without caste system. If its a food heavy city and you can take a break from slavery, run caste system and send your gs points through the roof. Then use one of the gs you get to lightbulb paper, and build sankore in the game city. Thats even more gs points...should be enough to push you through education, liberalism, printing press, chemistry and set up a couple acadamies.