Sherlock
Just one more turn...
I usually only plant the first two.
Great Scientist - when do you stop planting and start popping?
- Thread starter Sherlock
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Agreed, any GS that arrives after the Renaissance Era arrives too late for an Academy to be worth it.
Popping them though shouldn't be immediate; but there's somewhat more risk of waiting too late to start popping than too early due to the hard science overflow cap.
Popping them though shouldn't be immediate; but there's somewhat more risk of waiting too late to start popping than too early due to the hard science overflow cap.
General Tso
Panzer General
I didn't realize this existed. Do you have any details?
For me, no less than 2, no more than 3; so far it's been making me jump ahead by FAR, even against science-douches like Korea. But my current level is Emperor, so this behavior may not be appliable to Deity.
Just FYI, in my current Rome game [3 academies] I'm halfway through Atomic era, while the rest of the world is still in Industrial - except the Huns, who are still in Renaissance for whatever reason. Maybe its because I turned science victory off to see how it goes, but in other games I still managed to stay one full era ahead of Korea/Babs/etc and more than that against less enlightened foes like Shaka/Monty/Atila.
Just FYI, in my current Rome game [3 academies] I'm halfway through Atomic era, while the rest of the world is still in Industrial - except the Huns, who are still in Renaissance for whatever reason. Maybe its because I turned science victory off to see how it goes, but in other games I still managed to stay one full era ahead of Korea/Babs/etc and more than that against less enlightened foes like Shaka/Monty/Atila.
The “rule of thumb” I took away from a thread with lots of math was that if you can get 100+ turns from the academy, then planting is breaking even or better.
The “rule of thumb” for this one is to only bulb a GS when the tech has 5+ turns of research left. If you have Labs everywhere, and you should of course, then you are at 1K+ beakers per turn -- and relatively few Information Age tech take 5+ turns at that point in the game!
I plant more now that I have been caught by this in a few games. I would have 3+ GS on deck, GE bulb Hubble, and 2500+ faith stored up for GS. So that is 7+ GS -- with not that many expensive techs left in the game!
Since someone asked, GS bulbs give 8 turns of science and the overflow has a couple limits (I forget the details, but one cap is the cost of a single tech).
The “rule of thumb” for this one is to only bulb a GS when the tech has 5+ turns of research left. If you have Labs everywhere, and you should of course, then you are at 1K+ beakers per turn -- and relatively few Information Age tech take 5+ turns at that point in the game!
MaximusPlatypus
O.O
I pop em 8 turns after building research labs in my main science city/cities.
I'm not 100% this is completely optimal
I'm not 100% this is completely optimal
BigChiefLizzy
Warlord
Maybe I should be planting more, only tend to plant the first (free) one if playing Babylon, otherwise they all get saved. Then pop for certain key techs depending on what victory type is required, although Electricity is a favorite; should take it down to only a few turns so start building Oxford Uni as I finish, then pick radio as a free tech for first choice of ideology (at least on emperor and maybe immortal).
If playing a water map navigation is also one I sometimes bulb.
If playing a water map navigation is also one I sometimes bulb.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Planting makes bulbing better. It's about the only reason you ever plant - saving them means thousands of beakers.
I don't see why Babylon's ingenuity overturns this preference.
I don't see why Babylon's ingenuity overturns this preference.
It is close enough -- so long as you are not throwing away bulbs because of the cap.
GS bulbing any tech with 5+ turns of research left should be safe enough.
Because it is so much sooner than your first natural one. Planting that one is an obvious easy choice.
1000 beakers starting at ~T15 >> 8000 beakers at T200.
Sure, the raw beaker count of late bulbing is high, but then so are tech costs at that point in the game. So you have to take into account the relative value of the beakers.
If you think about turns of empire science you can easily put some relative weight to your decisions. That Babylon GS is easily 50 turns of empire science -- since almost all your early science is coming from your cap. Saving him all game long to get 8 turns of empire science at T200 is not strong play!
BigChiefLizzy
Warlord
Yes, and if I can plant on a reasonable tile - cows for preference, maybe non river tile with at least two food it's a massive early increase in science.
I think I have seen it halve my tech times early on, and that is a massive boost.
I think I have seen it halve my tech times early on, and that is a massive boost.
danaphanous
religious fanatic
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I plant ones I get in the first 3-4 eras. By mid-renaissance I'm saving them usually. They become so powerful at the end of the game it's hard to justify planting them unless you'll have a lot of turns. I play more big empire games and another midgame academy feels weaker then the powerful bulbs at the end of the game. That said it is easy to mess up your bulbing if you wait too long as others have said. Esp. with big order games where your science is reaching 2500 or more.
If your concern is overflow cap and you anticipate too many scientists then just bulb them earlier.
And the past 2 games I've run with huge empires and order I have been unable to complete hubble in time to make any difference. I have all the techs finished just from normally spawned and faith-bought scientists even starting the bulbing right as I enter the atomic era. Order empires really make those scientists powerful at 1.5 info-era techs apiece and about 2.5-3 atomic techs. It's hard to control overflow so I just start super early and spend 1 a turn. I guess this is atypical since most science players go freedom though for better ease of running specialists. I haven't heard of anyone else having this problem where hubble makes no difference but I run into it all the time. By the time the project is finished I have all the techs I needed for spaceship parts already and am just a few turns from launching.
Another thing you can do if you anticipate having too many scientists instead of planting a later one is to instead bulb plastics. Getting labs up 8 turns earlier if you have excess scientists saves you a bit of time in the end.
If your concern is overflow cap and you anticipate too many scientists then just bulb them earlier.
And the past 2 games I've run with huge empires and order I have been unable to complete hubble in time to make any difference. I have all the techs finished just from normally spawned and faith-bought scientists even starting the bulbing right as I enter the atomic era. Order empires really make those scientists powerful at 1.5 info-era techs apiece and about 2.5-3 atomic techs. It's hard to control overflow so I just start super early and spend 1 a turn. I guess this is atypical since most science players go freedom though for better ease of running specialists. I haven't heard of anyone else having this problem where hubble makes no difference but I run into it all the time. By the time the project is finished I have all the techs I needed for spaceship parts already and am just a few turns from launching.
Another thing you can do if you anticipate having too many scientists instead of planting a later one is to instead bulb plastics. Getting labs up 8 turns earlier if you have excess scientists saves you a bit of time in the end.
I am hardly doing things optimally, but I do not have this particular problem.
- In nine out of ten games, I work towards Rocketry using Rationalism finisher for Satellites, using a GE to bulb Hubble most of the time.
- Robotics is next, since it is counter productive to build SS parts without Robotic Factory.
- Ballistics after that, since there are three Boosters, and I will building parts in at least three cities.
danaphanous
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I agree with your strategy for the tradition/rationalism/freedom build. I run that less these days now that I've developed an addiction to liberty and big empires. 
that's basically the tech order I go too yeah. Though I often go for boosters before spaceship factories to reveal uranium and have the option to buy a nuclear plant in the apollo and hubble cities. This is because I usually double-bulb to get rocketry and satellites early so I can start apollo and hubble at the same time. it still makes little difference. I am often finished with every part tech by the time hubble finishes naturally though it might save a few turns off the last tech depending on the game.
I think this is more of an liberty-commerce-order-empire problem. I've often thought a GE for hubble would be useful but I usually don't have any, do you buy it from the tradition finisher ability? With liberty I don't have that option which is annoying since they are pretty useful with order. None spawn naturally for me because I don't run engineers until later in the game so I just rush through the techs and by the time apollo finishes I'm just a few turns from getting all the part techs. Then I build all parts at the same time, cash-buy spaceship factories and nuclear plants in all cities building and don't require any engineers to save me time. If I do need one to shave a few turns of the slowest part, Pioneers gives it to me. That's a thought though...the pioneers engineer could be used for hubble instead of the last part and then I could start bulbing earlier...it might make a few turns difference, I'll have to try that.
Of course if I had 2 additional scientists I could do even more, but that would put me over 10 end-game GS, I usually already have 8 from faith and natural-spawning. I tend to get a lot from the big empires and running scientists most of the game. One Celts game I had 11 scientists after hubble and about 3 made no difference even starting bulbing the turn after I entered the atomic era. By the end of 10 scientists and waiting between them for overflow and 1-turn techs to end I had everything from atomic and info eras. Finished on future techs as I was launching.
If I could count on getting hubble I guess I could start bulbing even further out but I wonder how many turns difference it would actually make? I know it does in tradition/freedom games because you have less scientists overall.
I'm still optimizing the order process but I usually launch about 12-15 turns after finishing the apollo program depending on how much money I can borrow to cash-buy the production buildings. The 5-7 turn lag in building apollo is used for bulbing to as many part techs and spaceship factories as possible and I'm headed toward the last one at the top of the tree when it finishes.
Anyone else play big empires and have some advice for making hubble more useful?
that's basically the tech order I go too yeah. Though I often go for boosters before spaceship factories to reveal uranium and have the option to buy a nuclear plant in the apollo and hubble cities. This is because I usually double-bulb to get rocketry and satellites early so I can start apollo and hubble at the same time. it still makes little difference. I am often finished with every part tech by the time hubble finishes naturally though it might save a few turns off the last tech depending on the game.
I think this is more of an liberty-commerce-order-empire problem. I've often thought a GE for hubble would be useful but I usually don't have any, do you buy it from the tradition finisher ability? With liberty I don't have that option which is annoying since they are pretty useful with order. None spawn naturally for me because I don't run engineers until later in the game so I just rush through the techs and by the time apollo finishes I'm just a few turns from getting all the part techs. Then I build all parts at the same time, cash-buy spaceship factories and nuclear plants in all cities building and don't require any engineers to save me time. If I do need one to shave a few turns of the slowest part, Pioneers gives it to me. That's a thought though...the pioneers engineer could be used for hubble instead of the last part and then I could start bulbing earlier...it might make a few turns difference, I'll have to try that.
Of course if I had 2 additional scientists I could do even more, but that would put me over 10 end-game GS, I usually already have 8 from faith and natural-spawning. I tend to get a lot from the big empires and running scientists most of the game. One Celts game I had 11 scientists after hubble and about 3 made no difference even starting bulbing the turn after I entered the atomic era. By the end of 10 scientists and waiting between them for overflow and 1-turn techs to end I had everything from atomic and info eras. Finished on future techs as I was launching.
If I could count on getting hubble I guess I could start bulbing even further out but I wonder how many turns difference it would actually make? I know it does in tradition/freedom games because you have less scientists overall.
I'm still optimizing the order process but I usually launch about 12-15 turns after finishing the apollo program depending on how much money I can borrow to cash-buy the production buildings. The 5-7 turn lag in building apollo is used for bulbing to as many part techs and spaceship factories as possible and I'm headed toward the last one at the top of the tree when it finishes.
Anyone else play big empires and have some advice for making hubble more useful?
You can afford to bulb ST and Plastics in wide empires because your higher bpt makes it so you don't need as many GSes post-plastics. If you still have a left over GS, start bulbing for endgame techs earlier.
With tradition freedom, if I get enough faith to get a GE, but not enough faith for the next GS, I will usually rush statue of liberty with it. I can usually produce Hubble and Apollo in time without need for a GE.
With tradition freedom, if I get enough faith to get a GE, but not enough faith for the next GS, I will usually rush statue of liberty with it. I can usually produce Hubble and Apollo in time without need for a GE.
I am prejudiced towards Liberty myself (but still run Tradition more) and work the tech tree the same. I will run Order as much as Freedom, but again that does not change the way I pursue SV. The only difference to my mind between Order and Freedom is Railroads before Replaceable Parts, accommodating unlocking the Wonders of course.
Hubble is one GE, so I almost always have that available. As you point out, the Order one is decent timing. So yes, try that. Worse than not using your Hubble city to build an SS Part is wasting those two Hubble GS!
Well, I think that is your problem then. I find the nuclear plants to be less turn sensitive than Hubble. So by working the tech tree way, you risk losing Hubble or making it irrelevant. And is that not what you were asking about?
I agree that there is not much virtue with unlocking Apollo early, but I like to start on the first part (cockpit?) with my Hubble city (usually the cap), so I cannot wait too long. As you also work it, I am trying to unlock Satellites the same turn I finish Rocketry -- so Apollo does end being the pain point.
I burn most of pre-Hubble GS getting to Rocketry. Two from Hubble and two from faith purchases after closing out Rationalism is decent enough to get through most of the SS techs, and those four are the bare minimum you can expect!
Robotics then Ballistics after Satellites means that the first part is done when the next three cities finish SS factory and are ready to each build a Booster. Another SS tech will be unlocked soon after that for the Hubble city. So that is five parts with four all finishing around the same time. Third tier Freedom or Order tenet for the last part.
Nuclear (or Solar) Plants before or after SS Factories makes no difference, since each boosts production of the other. I think waiting for both before any parts introduces too much of a delay. Building an SS part without an SS Factory is much more wasteful than building an SS part without a Plant. So I always wait on SS Factories for SS parts, but do not hold up any builds (including SS parts) waiting for Plant tech to unlock.
Nothing wrong with pausing builds (including SS parts) as the plant tech comes online. But that is the same kind of decision making you make with Factories (and, before that, Workshops).
What tech are getting with the Rationalism finisher? Maybe you are just getting everything done so much sooner than I am that my late game play makes no sense?
Great Scientists give science equal to the total amount of science generated by your cities in the last 8 turns. Science not generated by your cities like science from rationalism opener, trade routes and scholasticism do not count towards your bulbs.
And GS bulb yield is determined at time of bulbing, not time when the GS is spawned. Same for Great Writers.
danaphanous
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thanks for the input beetle. Maybe I do start bulbing late but I thought starting the tech after I enter the atomic era was pretty good. I will try your idea too, tbh I haven't really watched anyone else do this, just arrived at my own timing habits.
I usually start spending my guys the tech before or on rocketry because I like to continue bulbing/free techs until all spaceship part techs are complete and I can run science in most of them up to this point to get maximum power before I switch to parts. This is roughly 13 techs which my 8 scientists can usually manage no problem. Starting late like this I can get to robotics and boosters before apollo is finished because as you say it is the main time sink. The nuclear plant option first gives me the chance to buy one in apollo city to take a turn or two off when I can start parts. All told, from beelining and opening rocketry and starting apollo to launching the spaceship is around 20-25 turns total this way and depends a lot on how much money I can borrow early to get those order/mercantilism discount factories and plants in the parts cities. That seems like a fast rocket to me but I have nothing to compare it too because I don't watch anyone else play.
the tech I get for rationalism finisher varies a lot based on how good my culture is because I usually try to get to the discount policy in commerce as well before I finish rationalism. One game I think it was rocketry, my latest nanotech because I had poorer culture that game.
I usually start spending my guys the tech before or on rocketry because I like to continue bulbing/free techs until all spaceship part techs are complete and I can run science in most of them up to this point to get maximum power before I switch to parts. This is roughly 13 techs which my 8 scientists can usually manage no problem. Starting late like this I can get to robotics and boosters before apollo is finished because as you say it is the main time sink. The nuclear plant option first gives me the chance to buy one in apollo city to take a turn or two off when I can start parts. All told, from beelining and opening rocketry and starting apollo to launching the spaceship is around 20-25 turns total this way and depends a lot on how much money I can borrow early to get those order/mercantilism discount factories and plants in the parts cities. That seems like a fast rocket to me but I have nothing to compare it too because I don't watch anyone else play.
the tech I get for rationalism finisher varies a lot based on how good my culture is because I usually try to get to the discount policy in commerce as well before I finish rationalism. One game I think it was rocketry, my latest nanotech because I had poorer culture that game.
