Great Scientist

[Hawaiian]

Hi,

It seems to me that the obvious choice with these are to get a free technology. If you build their special academy it provides +5 research per turn. However, many technologies even in earlier era are 500+ research, meaning it would take 100 turns for you to gain the same benefit of that Great Scientist.

Is there any reason to build the academy? Especially later in the game? I'm trying to see the value of the academy as compared to their instant tech gaining ability.

 

[Methos]

Remember that +5 from the Academy is affected by all the multipliers, so any policy, building, wonder, whatever, that has a % increase on science will increase the +5.

 

[planetary]

I've not done the analysis, but it seems that the production and gold boost from a Golden Age can be worth burning the great scientist on GAs -- especially if you have the social policy which extends the ages by 50%.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Is there any reason to build the academy? Especially later in the game? I'm trying to see the value of the academy as compared to their instant tech gaining ability.

It's more than the +5 once you factor in the science output multipliers.

It is, however, pretty useless in the late game. Early game? Depends on how long you plan that this game goes... (though insta-bulbing is still more appealing, most of the time).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pragmatic]

Unless you're in a race for a technology (say, slingshotting), I wouldn't consider using a Great Scientist for bulbing any Ancient or Classical tech. Medieval techs would be situational. (But then, you're not likely to get a GS that early, eh?)

After the Medieval era, I wouldn't even consider using a GS to build an Academy. The number of turns remaining, compared to the costs of the techs, means that it's just not worth it.

(Note that I've only considered the building-based science modifiers.)
If I recall correctly (general impressions, I don't remember the exact numbers):
Ancient era: About 15 turns max to recoup the investment on an Academy.
Classical era: About 30 turns
Medieval era: About 45 turns

After that, it gets to be 100 or more turns to recoup the expense.

 

[Vanadium]

early in the the game it makes sense especially when you couple the benefit with library and university ....I have seen my one city turn into a research mecca ...you really want it in a large city though and one that will use great people as well as the academy and the research buildings. i saw my one city go from 15 research to about 55 research in the span of about 40 turns just building and using great people.

you still need to put a citizen on that tile so id recommend a grassland tile not on a river.

 

[MrMT]

I haven't done the math, but with a large sprawling empire I feel the golden age is the better option . Especially as you always lose something in return for the plus 5.

 

[Pragmatic]

early in the the game it makes sense especially when you couple the benefit with library and university

Library isn't one of the science-multiplier buildings.

Buildings:
University/Wat (Medieval) is +50%. (Plus benefits from Jungle tiles.)
Observatory (Renaissance) is +50%. (Requires bordering Mountain)
Public School (Renaissance) is +50%.
Research Lab (Modern) is +100%.

Social policies:
Rationalism/Sovereignty is +15% (when you have net-positive happiness)

Wonders:
National College is +50% (in one city).

There's probably more out there. There's plenty of adder bonuses (e.g., one social policy gives free science from specialists, another gives free science from trading posts, and the Library gives extra science from population), but I think that's most of the multiplier bonuses.

 

[Hawaiian]

Library isn't one of the science-multiplier buildings.

Buildings:
University/Wat (Medieval) is +50%. (Plus benefits from Jungle tiles.)
Observatory (Renaissance) is +50%. (Requires bordering Mountain)
Public School (Renaissance) is +50%.
Research Lab (Modern) is +100%.

Social policies:
Rationalism/Sovereignty is +15% (when you have net-positive happiness)

Wonders:
National College is +50% (in one city).

There's probably more out there. There's plenty of adder bonuses (e.g., one social policy gives free science from specialists, another gives free science from trading posts, and the Library gives extra science from population), but I think that's most of the multiplier bonuses.

So here's the thing, you get 5 science * 1.5 in ancient, then *2 in Renaissance, then maybe *1.5 or so in Modern. It still doesn't seem to add up to much when you consider the overall science values of these techs.

Essentially you'll be getting about 7.5 in Ancient IF you build the building, then 17.5 per turn in Ren IF you build the buildings, then maybe 23 or so in Modern IF you build the buildings again? I didn't calculate it exactly, but it still seems that a one pop instant tech is SOOOO much better than these rather measly per turn gains that still require buildings to get them.

Can anyone explain to me otherwise? I really must be missing something.

 

[NZV]

+5 science is nice, but remember that you are giving up a tile for it, which is key. You could bulb the scientist and leave a trading post on the tile, which gives you +2 science once you get the policy for it, as well as gold.

 

[Maxor127]

Yeah, academy using a tile makes it a bit more worthless. I'd rather these great leaders joined a city like in Civ4. Especially since the city usually doesn't even use the tile. I have to lock a citizen onto it. My first game, I wasted 3 scientists on academies and regretted it. Now, I'll probably use one tops early game and use the rest for free techs. In fact, in a game I'm playing now, I've been saving them for late game techs.

 

[dannythefool]

I think I was able to build academies on the otherwise worthless cattle/sheep tiles. That only loses you one food because you can't build something more useful on them.

 

[Tutkarz]

Or just build farm on this plot instead and have +since form population or more specialists (different kinds). I think that GP buildings should be boosted since now (in civ 4 i always joined them to city) are only GA spam for me (or free tech).

 

[Hawaiian]

I don't mind that you build the building on a plot, but that should only make it all the more powerful. As it is, I just can't see any reason to not bulb! It is wayyyyy better! Have an instant tech vs. potentially get science boost over time if you build correct buildings and remember to work tile? Hmmmm. Doesn't even seem like a difficult choice! BUFF THE GREAT PERSON BUILDINGS PLEASE!

 

[Hawaiian]

Yeah, academy using a tile makes it a bit more worthless. I'd rather these great leaders joined a city like in Civ4. Especially since the city usually doesn't even use the tile. I have to lock a citizen onto it. My first game, I wasted 3 scientists on academies and regretted it. Now, I'll probably use one tops early game and use the rest for free techs. In fact, in a game I'm playing now, I've been saving them for late game techs.

This only adds to making it not worth it to build these! Can anyone extol the virtue of the academy or is it decided? Instant tech bulb is way overpowered compared to the academy?

 

[GreenChaos]

With the Statue of Liberty (+1 prod from specialists), + 2 science from specialists from rationalism, and specialist consume only half food from Freedom, I think you would be better off using two bulbs on science specialists for the price of one build on a science building, giving you 10 science and 1 production not to mentions points towards a great scientist.

And if you are going to do that, do it in your capital with out 4 or more maritime city states giving you 20 or more food.

 

[Ahriman]

which gives you +2 science once you get the policy for it

No it doesn't, +1 science.

I am annoyed at how few improvement boosters there are though.
Farms get boosted, lumber mills get boosted.
Trading post gets boosted only by tech.
Why is there no mine boost from, say, dynamite tech?

 

[duxup]

Stupid teachers were right, I do need to know math.

 

[Zhahz]

IMO, the effects of all the GS buildings are too weak. I have never seen the AI use them and I have only tried the +sci building once early when going for space race - put one in my primary science city.

For a while I was using one of the improvement tweak mods that I further tweaked myself. I doubled the yield of all the GS buildings (so +10 for the academy) - which might have been excessive but the AI did start to value them. In my first game with those tweaks Persia built an academy and Ghandi had 3 Acadamies at once city. Now THAT starts to be worth using. I've since stopped using my mod (even though it otherwise very small changes) but I do think the yields on the GS buildings need to be bumped up. When even the dumb AI realizes they suck, then you know they suck. And based on my tweaking/experimenting, the AI determines their value in-game (it isn't hard coded), so sliding the values can make them appeal even to the AI.

 

[duxup]

For a while I was using one of the improvement tweak mods that I further tweaked myself. I doubled the yield of all the GS buildings (so +10 for the academy) - which might have been excessive but the AI did start to value them.

Really? Is the AI actually doing the math and deciding based on that what to value?