Great Scientists

[Saxif]

I had a realisation today whilst playing. I am trying to get fast Lib times on Noble, I managed to produce maybe 3 or 4 great priests in a row, needles to say my economy was great, what with having founded Jewism as well.

However despite what looked like a solid empire still only netted me Lib at 1010.

I got carried away building Wonders in my Capital. It seems that Wonders, or most of them are not equal to a SC pop. Though tbh they are more fun when building them, it is like a sub game chasing Wonders; though at Noble AI speedit is quite eas to get them.

So, I am mainly rambling but anyone think that overall 4 Great Priests = 4 Great Scientists in a space race game? Could you catch up the 25 turns of bulb increased speed over a epic speed game given the bonus to the economy those priests bring in over the duration ...

 

[Kid R]

I don't mind settled priests in a space game - the extra hammers are handy especially for the ship parts. Scientists are IMO better though. They bulb better techs and settled the beakers are easier to multiply than priest cash. Also the academy is v powerful, but then so is a shrine if you're doing the religion thing.

With the wonderhogging style it's easy to mix up the great person types of the wonders and you end up with random great people. Players usually try to be a bit more focused on wonders to ensure scientists or engineers. Throw the national epic in there and run a small risk of an artist, but put things like the oracle and great lighthouse in other cities so the "main" wonder city always produces "good" GPs.

Also a spell in caste system with a load of science specialists really tilts the odds in favour of getting great scientists.

 

[Saxif]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought tbh. It was annoying that I couldn't bulb any techs till chemistry and didn't get any academies down till really late. The reason in this game for late academies was to avoid bulking backwards techs.

I think mixing GPP isn't to bad because you can more easily GA off the GP, though I am aware of people building person specific Wonder Farms! I have never managed to be so focused ...

I think I'll take this game through to an actual conclusion to see ow it turns out with a religious economy, + 3 cottage towns.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Try a GMerch economy sometime Build TGL and Colossus in a city and run Merch specialists with caste system. Pick a good cottage or shrine city to settle a few GMs in, and also run Merch specialists there. When Wall Street goes up, you'll be making super-! Save one of the GMs for Sushi, found it in the WS city, and you can run 100% science slider and still come up with dozens of gold in the bank each turn!

 

[strijder20]

Scientists usually are better.
In the mid-game, you may want to run bureaucracy. Let's assume you are getting 64 commerce in your capital. With the bureaucracy bonus, that's 100 commerce. When running slider at 70%, an academy will net you 35 beakers, which is a lot more than the 5 gold and 2 hammers you get from prophets.

What wonders do you build? Most times, it's better to use the 'side' wonders for fail gold or just build wealth/research.

The bulbing technique might also save you more than 25 turns: for example, an early Philosophy will get you taoism, and the ability to run pacifism for even more great people. A monopoly to paper means you can get a lot by trading your map away for gold, or by buying other people's maps and selling those. An early Education means you can get Universities and Oxford up earlier, and getting to Liberalism fast means you could go for something expensive to lib (such as steel, or even Biology - probably not impossible on noble, and you are probably a good player as you can get lib at 1000 AD).

 

[goldys_lackey]

A late lib time is better if you're getting steel or Communism or something really expensive. The key to this is teching (bulbing usually) Philosophy first, and teching Civil Service first. This can throw the AI off of the lib path.

 

[Saxif]

Yeah, I held off on actually cashing lib in and grabbed a few more techs so my free tech from lib was something better than gunpowder!

I have libed earlier than 1000ad by maybe 100 years but I can't seem to beat it, I kinda wanna equal those really early lib scores on a Prince game (500ad) I am messing on Noble because I haven't played for a couple years and don't want the added hassle of a SoD on my boarder. The big problem is getting Str 20 rifles when your opponent has muskets and knowing you have won but grinding out the spaceship anyway ...

I also am starting to think that Wonder whoring can actually slow you down compared with 25 turns of building wealth or running specialists! I guess good wonders provide a bonus for at least half a space race and then obsolete ...

I'll try some more I am sure

 

[karadoc]

Try a GMerch economy sometime Build TGL and Colossus in a city and run Merch specialists with caste system. Pick a good cottage or shrine city to settle a few GMs in, and also run Merch specialists there. When Wall Street goes up, you'll be making super-! Save one of the GMs for Sushi, found it in the WS city, and you can run 100% science slider and still come up with dozens of gold in the bank each turn!

I often do something like this... My favourite is to pair wallstreet with the national epic. (ie. not a cottage city, but a food + specialists city). Great Merchants have some synergy with the national epic because their food bonus can be used to feed more specialists.

The thing one has to understand when comparing Great Merchants / Priests with Great Scientists is that the gold bonus is more valuable than the science bonus, unless you are able to pay all your expenses while 0% gold. (I starting writing an explanation for this claim, but it was getting long and potentially boring, so I decided to just delete it and let people think about it themselves if they don't already know about it.)

 

[Saxif]

I get that in my game, 3 settled great priest and a holy shrine when under a bank, grocer and market let alone wall street as well will go along way to paying for my empire and allow me to run my science slider higher. In effect meaning that all the cottages, gems, gold silver mines e.t.c. will be producing science and not gold.

That's why I wonder if in the long term settling priests might = bulking techs. It didnt help me get liberalism any faster but I have been running my slider 10 - 20% higher for the entire game because of them. Possibly more when I put wall street down. I *think* that may allow me to catch up with the techs I could have bulbed but it is hard to know for sure.

 

[capnvonbaron]

I often do something like this... My favourite is to pair wallstreet with the national epic. (ie. not a cottage city, but a food + specialists city). Great Merchants have some synergy with the national epic because their food bonus can be used to feed more specialists.

The thing one has to understand when comparing Great Merchants / Priests with Great Scientists is that the gold bonus is more valuable than the science bonus, unless you are able to pay all your expenses while 0% gold. (I starting writing an explanation for this claim, but it was getting long and potentially boring, so I decided to just delete it and let people think about it themselves if they don't already know about it.)

Yup, cash is king IMO. Nothing like bribing the AI to war each other all game. Makes it easier for you to march in and kill them if they're weak from fighting each other all through the middle ages. I also love to draft a crapload of rifles while researching ass'ly line, then upgrade them all to infantry with your ludicrous amounts of cash. Then go kill everyone

If anything, being able to fund a huge army will make the AI think twice about attacking you.

Also, all the in the world won't keep up with the AI on the highest difficulty levels. You're going to have to buy and steal many techs, and that takes a strong economy and lots of gold.....

 

[Archon_Wing]

It's be pretty hard to compete with the thousands of beakers GS's can bulb and the benefits of getting a key tech earlier with trade value. However...

I see Prophets only useful for the hyperproduction wonder hoarding capital. (Those hammers do get boosted by Bureau after all). Maybe you have a nice capital but the land around you is too crap to bother with however you have naturally good production, are a ind/phi leader, and have stone/marble. Let's say things would be a bit different if your capital is on plains hill stone.

Also, with all that extra early production and gold to fuel your coffers, perhaps consider an earlier war? The strength of these guys comes from those hammers, not research, after all.

 

[bhavv]

G merch economy is very nice for Elizabeth as her UB gives an additional 15% gold.

 

[Choggy]

Nice work! 1010AD for Lib at Noble is pretty good with no GS bulbs, especially as you reckon you could have had it around 10 turns earlier. Whilst all those settled Great Prophets mean you can run the science slider at 80-90%, I would guess that most of your commerce is from the capital under Bureau, hence the fast early tech pace.

However I think you may pay the price a bit for it later on if you're looking for a space-race win because settled Great Prophets lose their value as time goes on. You can get the same base gpt as a settled Great Prophet from a couple of towns at 70% commerce slider and by focussing on your cap to the detriment of your other cities you lose the value of the later civics (Free Market, Free Speech) that you need for those late techs required for building the spaceship. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because at Noble level you should still win comfortably if you can get Lib that early, I just think it's not the quickest way to get your spaceship launched.

I'm starting to think more and more that a Lib beeline simply isn't the best strategy at Noble/Prince level unless I'm going for a Culture victory. Without a tech-trading partner to help you along, you need to plan your empire ahead to make sure you can keep up the tech rate when you move from Bureaucracy rather than just focussing on your capital. To me Lib is the turning point in the game, the techs and civics you get afterwards are empire-based whereas before Lib they're capital-based. The beakers required for each tech also go up exponentially, without a solid empire they take longer and longer to get and you end up relying on a dwindling supply of GS bulbs to keep up the tech rate.

The other thing about a Lib beeline at Noble/Prince level is the frustation at watching the AI civs subsequently start clawing back my hard-earned tech lead through tech-trading. All those techs I've had to manually research just get banded around like confetti. The only way I can keep a healthy lead is by making sure my empire can produce enough beakers to stay well in front. I've come to the conclusion that at this level researching Lib to within 1 turn, then getting the majority of techs around Lib first and back-tracking to cover the earlier ones I missed before finishing is a much better way of doing it - there isn't a race to Lib at this level because the AI civ's take so long to get there.

 

[Archon_Wing]

You certainly don't need lib. But on the other hand it's so easy to get it at this difficulty, it's quite the boon. But you are right that if you don't take advantage of what you get from lib, then you will begin to fall apart. This is why you should lib steel or MT so it doesn't matter how crappy your research rate is... only your ability to make units. :3

My other feeling is with marble or IND, libbing quickly isn't bad due to the Taj mahal

You also don't want to settle GPs later on because they won't pay their value in time. But by this you want GPs to start golden ages anyways so it doesn't hurt that much unless you turn multiple prophets.

As for tech trading, just hold off a bit. Get whatever you can with Philosophy or paper and hold on to education as long as you can so you can keep oxford to yourself. Don't feel bad about being ripped off... snagging guilds/engineering is good enough in my eyes.

The true advantage of going Lib isn't Lib. It's actually Education.