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Great start, but i'm stuck nevertheless

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Zink, Aug 22, 2008.

  1. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Munich
    Heya,

    i could need some advice on opening strategy with this wonderful starting position (i didn't regenerate). It's a prince game, fractual, epic and i'm playing as ghandi (3.17 with unofficial patch and BUG). Actually i wanted to play my first monarch game since i am easily winning prince...i better rethink :mischief:



    Last night i already finished the game with a win in 1990 via space race. It was my 3rd attempt on opening strategy and it was a close race :(

    In case someone wants to play the attached game i'll post the rest in spoilers.
    I'd love to see someone play out the beginning :)
    Spoiler :

    1. attempt: REX, but my only neighboor on this island has the larger part of land and he has iron. Charlemagne DoWed and crushed me.
    2. attempt: settle next to his capital and take 1 other spot he claimed the game before. This killed my economy and he still killed me later on.
    3. attempt: settle next to him and DOW:


    I saw his worker/settler/warrior stack and took the opportunity to DoW.


    It took ages to finally kill him since my reinforcements took ages to get there and he had 40% cultural defense with CG1/Drill1 Archers. As soon as my unit arrived he whipped another archer. Needless to say, this put me way behind in tech and i just managed to win space race in 1990 (although i won Liberalism race and founded Conf/Tao).

    Some additional info: Charlemagne has iron, i don't. I tried to take his city once with horse archers, failed. Then i retried by teching cats and finally managed with axes/cats and some chariots.

    I'd appreciate to hear some better strategies on how to deal with this map (or how to more effectively take his capital).
     

    Attached Files:

  2. dubrown

    dubrown Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
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    438
    Location:
    Sweden
    Haven't checked the save but from the pictures it looks to me you have copper fairly close to your capital. To me that would mean axerush. Settle second city to claim copper, build axes, rush. This should be possible to do before Charlie gets iron.
     
  3. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    You should have settled your first city next to copper, built 8-10 axes and killed him.
     
  4. Lord Chambers

    Lord Chambers Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,004
    Gems = win. Gems in the capital (meaning no jungle therefore no wait for Iron Working)? Game over.

    Why is it such a boon? Because you can use it to finance your trip to Writing, Currency, and Code of Laws while conquering with Axemen; speed your trip to Construction for Catapults; Use the Oracle for something big to hit your opponents with or to trade yourself into Tech Master Chief. Which of these options are best depends on what happens after you found your city and move that warrior around. The only sure things are that your second or third cities should include Copper and the third Gem tile your capital can't work. And that your game is already won so you might as well try Emperor.
     
  5. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    Concerning axe rush:
    Spoiler :
    In the screenshot that shows his settler/worker/warrior stack he already has a 2nd city with access to horses. That settler is heading towards copper. I don't think i can mass enough axes before he either has chariots or axes as well, but i'll give it a shot :)
     
  6. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    Location:
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    Spoiler :
    Get the copper online ASAP, build 8 axes and pillage his copper at the beginning of the war. Horses are no problem as long as you keep your units on defensive terrain. Your axes actually get better odds when attacking chariots than when attacking archers, because chariots get no defensive bonuses.
     
  7. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
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    Location:
    Kansai, Japan
    Two remarks:
    - getting to copper is a bad idea. Because you'll end up with a very bad city just because of it.
    - why Bombay placed like this? Didn't you find any better spot for it? The present spot really looks awfull.
     
  8. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    @ Lord Chambers: So you suggest i expand peacefully and tech for a later mace/treb attack? You're right, teching is pretty fast :)

    Here's my problem with the axe rush:
    Spoiler :

    I chopped the settler and settled at copper. Didn't settle right next to it since i wanted the gems and be able to build a lighthouse. I saw Charles finishing AH a while ago.


    By the time i get copper hooked up and can start building axes Charles already has 4 citys, one of them ontop of copper:


    I take the lonley city to the west with my horse archer. It's pop1 so it destroys. Then i go for his horses and pillage it.
    With enough axes and horse archers i take the capital. After that its a long wait for cats since he settled ontop of the copper and is pumping axes with city defense of 50%. I burn the city since i find it badly placed:


    It's 520AD now and i lost out on all wonders till now due to building units. I founded Conf and got lucky with discovering gold in my capital :eek:

    Somehow i doubt the game will end any different than in my initial post :(


    @ JujuLautre:
    Spoiler :
    I placed that city there because Charles settled there in my first round...so no, i didn't really have a specific reason :lol:

    I'm still waiting for someone to post his game, should be educating for me :)
     
  9. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Definitely should get your second city to grab the southern copper as soon as you possibly can. Waiting until 580 AD to take out Charlemagne is going to kill your game.

    Should have built Bombay 1 tile East of its location in the screenie.

    To help you get out that early axe rush using - chop and whip. I can't find a current article that applies to 3.17 mechanics, but the basic idea is this: Micromanage production and how your city works its tiles until you are on the last turn that the axeman will require two population to whip, then whip it for two pop. The overflow hammers will go into the next axeman, making it probably a 3-4 turn build and your city grows back to the happiness cap quickly. Once you reach the happiness cap, shift to high hammer/low food tiles until whip anger goes away and either whip again or wait until the next build to micromanage the 2-pop whip. Using this strategy and chopping, you should be able to get an army of 8 axemen within about 20 turns - depending on the speed you are playing (I always play Epic), your happiness cap, and the number of cities whipping/chopping, whether you have granaries, etc. Looking at your screenies - should be possible around 2000 BC or a little later.

    Edit: I just saw your latest screenies and have two criticisms:

    1) 1200 BC is way too late to hook up the copper. From your first turn, you should beeline BW (probably fishing first to get the clams) and settle next to or on top of the copper to get your axes cranking. The copper city has only one purpose: get copper, kill Charlemagne. The city will not be a stellar performer, but you now have all of Charlemagne's lands to make up for it.

    2) You have way too many forests remaining around your capital at 1200 BC. Since there are diminishing rewards for chopping as the game goes on, it is wise to chop early and often, especially if you have an early rush/REX strategy.

    Edit two: here is a good early rush guide:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=244075
     
  10. Joshua368

    Joshua368 Warmongering builder

    Joined:
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    Don't put so much stock in the early wonders, they didn't do you any good before when Charles decided to mow over you. The important thing is he's crippled without his capital and you should be able to easily finish him off soon, giving you the entire continent to fill in to its maximum potential.

    You can't do an early rush and nab wonders at the same time, you gotta pick one or the other. Splitting your focus will make you fail both.
     
  11. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    @ Joshua368:
    Spoiler :
    If i compare my original attempt at rushing him and this attempt i think my first attempt was better:
    Initial attempt at 655AD:
    + i got 3 more cities founded myself,
    + further in tech by quite a bit,
    + better infrastructure (markets, courthouses, calender),
    +/- 60% research while netting -2 gold/turn,
    +/- no wonders (but as you said, that's ok)

    This attempt at 655AD (played a few more turns for comparison):
    + captured 1 city besides capital
    + larger standing army (not that i need it anymore)
    - in total 2 cities less
    - behind in tech
    - no infrastructure (only barracks and some lighthouses)
    - 60% research while netting -13 gold/turn
    All that whipping cost me research since i couldn't work the gems. I also let him expand too much so i needed more units=higher upkeep (especially that copper city on the hill). Then i got 2 bad events which cost time, 4 swordsmen outside of capital, slave revolt in capital.
    I'm not the best in micro-managing so my whipping probably wasn't the most efficient.

    Perhaps i did more wrong in mid game then. An isolated start with little health resources was a problem throughout the game :(


    @ rddc05: I teched fishing/agriculture/AH/BW. I know where the copper is so i could settle anyway. Perhaps i should have settled next to it to avoid having to build a monument. It's just that i hate useless citys (in the longrun) ;)
     
  12. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    Why agriculture->AH? I see no grain or animals in your BFC.. Go fishing->BW, build worker->wb->wb->warrior->settler->worker->barracks->axes, and don't hesitate cranking the whip as you have high food surplus. Settle right next to copper, maybe on the plains hill 1N of it. You should be able to attack ~2000-1500BC. If you target the copper city first, it should be early enough.
     
  13. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Heh, no offense bro, but thats almost a reason NOT to settle there. The AIs are notorious for settling "less than optimal" spots. If you dont have a sound reason for settling a particular city, then find another spot.

    Here are some of my personal examples of sound reasons:

    Blocks the AI/carves out land for me
    Nabs a critical resource
    Will be a production/commerce giant
    Has enough good tiles to justify the poor ones/overlaps

    etc, etc, you get the point.
     
  14. rddc05

    rddc05 Warlord

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    Yes you could settle the city earlier, but you still need BW to hook up copper, get axemen, chop forests and pop rush in slavery :) For an early rush, BW has to be beelined.

    You are probably sick of this game, but if you try again, go Fishing-> BW and try a build order something along the lines of warrior->fishing boat->worker->chop worker->chop settler->chop fishing boat. Settle 1 tile NE of the copper, hook it up and start your chop/whip axe buildup per the post above. The copper city is going to be short of extra food in any event, so it will not be a very productive city no matter where you put it. Should be able to take Charlemagne's capital shortly after 2000 BC and he will be done. Speed kills, in this case your enemy.

    Edit: Zanttu's suggestion to settle the copper city on the plains hill is a good one.

    Edit 2: Zanttu's suggestion to go worker first is also better than mine, since he can mine the gems right away. So...just read Zanttu's post, hehe.
     
  15. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    @ zantuu:
    Spoiler :
    i know the map so i know where to find what resources: there's horses in the BFC, therefore i went for AH. As for build order, that's exactly what i did :) (besides the part with the axes, i built horse archers instead until copper was hooked up).


    @ bleys:
    thank you for your advice. I've been reading your threads and that has really helped me improve my game! Thanks for that :)
    As for that odd city placement: i did want a city next to his capital so i chose the area on purpose. The exact placement...as i wrote above :D

    I will try the rush again tomorrow, can't see that map again today :crazyeye:
     
  16. Zanttu

    Zanttu Pure Tactician

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    Spoiler :


    You know you are too slow if you have researched HBR before starting on axes.. Okay, so if there's horse I would go agriculture->AH after BW... So fishing->BW->agriculture->AH. Use both workers to hook up copper ASAP so that you can start building/whipping axes immediately after you complete the barracks.
     
  17. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Thanks for the kind words mate, helping people is why I do it, and you would be surprised to know how much helping others can help myself.

    I actually played your start, and your right, it is a bit of a PITA. Charley gets to cut you off pretty nicely, and you really have to jump on it to get an Axe rush in time, because his hooks up pretty fast. He also has horses, which kind of hurt your Axes, so you will need Spears as well. Definitely not as simple as it looks from the opening.
     
  18. gskyes

    gskyes Warlord

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    Do I need the unofficial patch to play the save? It looks like a great scenario to practice an axe rush on. I might try this out later.
     
  19. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    C'mon, this is noble. Opening build is warrior x4. Work a 2F1H tile until size 2, then 2 1F2H tiles until warriors are built. Use your scout to find Charlie's capital and see if you can get a peek at his city square. If it's on a hill, build 2 more warriors (6 total), otherwise 4 will do. Declare war, lose 2 warriors, take his capital, he will have no other cities that early. Now the continent is yours to do with as you please. On noble and below I always start this way, since it will be rare for the AI to get archers that early unless they start with hunting and are a long way away. If my scout finds that I'm isolated I use the extra warriors for fogbusters.
     
  20. Shadowkx

    Shadowkx Grunt

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    hhmm

    Thought this was Prince... anyway Warrior rushes are not a good tactic for higher levels. Practice the Axe rush now.
     

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