Great Zimbabwe + spies = OP - science vic strategy

[Victoria]

8 internal trade routes to +4 cities is 32 prod per turn, no additional outlay, with food and gold on top?
I dunno, it just seems like there is other ways to have a good time?

 

[sa1vy]

Where does the 3.3 gold/hammer calculation come from?

 

[trendy]

Where does the 3.3 gold/hammer calculation come from?

Quickly took a look in game at several different buildings and units. That's the ratio I consistently got with the 15% discount from merchant republic active.

 

[Rakish]

there is one thing your not accounting for with those calculations, the opportunity cost of having those trade routes somewhere else. if I send all my trade routes to a single city its possible to have a 5 cog trade route for every one. Compared to all or most of my trade routes coming from one city where realistically most are going to be 2 or even 1 cog routes. there is also the problem of smaller cities being heavily reliant on trade routes to get up and running in a timely matter that your potentially foregoing. Or the potential cost of not focusing routes on other big cost items, spaceport or Big Ben for instance, though of-course you can build one of these in the same city but its not always going to be possible or best.

your also giving up the cogs to build the wonder instead of say using those for science buildings, which then means your giving up raw science, for however many turns it takes you to build them after the wonders completed.

there is also another problem that good science victory times seem to be around 200 or even less. this leaves you a fairly small window where you unlock the wonder, build it, transfer enough routes over because you cant do this instantly as you cant cancel routes easily, then get the returns on investment before you should have already have won.

*Assuming we are talking optimal play

Not disputing that even saying all this it may be or at least be close to optimal, if done right.

 

[Victoria]

realistically most are going to be 2 or even 1 cog

Most of my coastal cities have CH, Harbor and certainly a few have IZ so +3/4 for me. It allows me to get the few wonders I would like with better options like getting that damn spaceport built.

I will hold my hand up and say I have only built it once and was not that impressed at the time. However using a combination of cards with it can make it stronger, you just sacrifice card slots doing so.

 

[Rakish]

so assuming we are talking science victory, how many of your cities are big enough to support CH, Harbour, IZ and Campus? and while multiple CH and Harbors is viable to a degree with England, that's the only case. Even then I would dispute how efficient this is as you have to fit campus's in there for most cities so thats already only 7 pop cities that dont want any other districts. how many trade routes before you run out of cities like that to trade with?

 

[Victoria]

With lighthouses now I can grow my cities to 10 pretty easily. It's rare I will do the science victory but I often have every inland city with campus and commercial with a few theatres and entertainment thrown in.
So I have some high production trade routes and high food trade routes.
I will often have 15 trade routes or more because of the England buff.
Great Zimbabwe sorta cramps my flexibility with trade routes. Having the ability to pump food or production is great.

A lot of how I play comes down to where the continents divide because Pax Brittanica is fairly strong and continents noticeably affect my harbour's also. There is no strict style of play but it just makes sense to me to have some trade routes max production and other max food. Food trade routes are great internally mid game and then go out late game. If I am going for a science victory I will want 15 cities just because more work better. It's all a question of how well the expansion phase goes.

80% of my games are Victoria so I am terribly biased. You could argue great zim would be better for me but as said, just seems to make my game duller

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, you'll have to post a starting save for that. At least for all Standard/Continents/Deity there are no unwinnable. It's about as hard as Monarch back on CIV:Warlords, it's laughable to think the best players back then could lose on Monarch.

Oh come on, it's more like emperor level in civ 4 . Monarch was the kind of place where you could win entire maps on horse archers only. You could technically do that on emperor too, but you had to at least know what you were doing.

Lol, I disagree, some games are just not winnable

As a general rule in gaming, when people make this claim, they are wrong. It does serve a nice barrier to improvement to interpret things this way though.

The exceptions are very rare.

However, there isn't a way to say if this is actually a great strategy or not.

To be fair, it's not hard in principle to do the math if the game gets to the point where you need to try. It has measurable benefits and they can be compared against alternative builds. Given the game's hard-on for trade route micro this thing is probably a good investment in many cases. Not as good as Civ 4 GLH on some maps or oracle but easier to get than those.

 

[trendy]

Looks like people are presenting cases where you get +4-5 production trade routes internally, which while possible is kind of unrealistic for when you can get Zimbabwe up. Besides that, you're kind of gimping yourself if you don't include campuses (and/or holy site as religious CV or theater as cultural CV) as an early district. Also, there's value in a centralized hub for production where you can crank out wonders and other things that can save turns by allowing you to instead spend more time getting districts and infrastructure up in slower cities (like builders). Since Zimbabwe doubles trade route effectiveness, you're putting all that extra gold into these cities too so it's really just like they have the trade routes they lost by going Zimbabwe, but you have a stronger production hub now, and more control over exactly where these hammers go. I'd argue you're not really losing anything by having all trade routes in one city. You can get pop up pretty quicky by harvesting jungle or marsh if need be. You'll likely have to struggle with pop cap anyway for a good part of the game. And realistically you're only getting +3 production routes at most when Zimbabwe should be constructed.

I don't know what Victoria has against building wonders every game. I mean you don't HAVE to if you don't want to, but realistically after a while you're always doing the same things in a game anyway what's one more thing to add to that checklist? Build an early army, grab what cities you can early, churn out natural settlers. Get commerce hubs/harbors and trade routes up, build your VC district in all your cities, while... building Zimbabwe now too? Doesn't seem too bad.

 

[Rakish]

Thanks for the strong counter points trendy.

I agree that 5 cogs is quite optimistic by shortly past banking tech, but I think 4 is quite achievable. If I target my capital its the most likely to be high pop, and developed. Start with a commercial, then industrial, then one of military/dock and I'm at a 4 cog route.

For a science victory having this city then build the space port or big ben then makes sense too because I'm not giving up any science projects. Plus it gets all the extra bonus's from city states.

It my opinion (maybe I'm wrong) a super early campus isnt even that helpfull anyway because if you steam through the early parts of the tech/civics tree, districts go up in prodution by a lot; and what is it that really makes a fast any victory type? Having a large numbers of cities with high per turn output in your chosen VC type. The sonner my science output is 1 turning techs the sooner I'm winning. How far I was in the tree before this makes little difference because science overflows.

Also, gold = production is not true, because districts, wonders and projects cannot be bought. Yes you can buy builders to chop things, but this is regularly going to very limited.

Also I think Victoria is right that ocasionaly a 3f 2p type route can be really strong for a food poor city. Gold dosnt equate to food either. Sure you can also buy things like a granary or watermill but these are mostly inefficent in my experience.

Another thing to consider. If I'm spending gold to make up for less production then I'm not doubling it later on so you would need to calculate how many turns it will take you to get to around 20K in my experience and stop spending (depending on how many are left and if you get lucky) to turn into 40 ,to afford the rest of the Great Sienctists.

I'm actualy keen to give it a try. the only problem is you would have to find a good city to build it in and thats just not going to be every game.

 

[Victoria]

I don't know what Victoria has against building wonders every game. I mean you don't HAVE to if you don't want to, but realistically after a while you're always doing the same things in a game anyway what's one more thing to add to that checklist?

I have nothing against wonders per se. If I am sitting there with big production city with nothing to do then sure. I'll always look for certain wonders like Extra card wonders but my window of opportunity seems to be smaller than others .
Early game wonders I normally prefer an extra district because that is stronger in my opinion.
Mid game is typically when I will try a few if I am not doing something else I feel I need
Late game I would rather have a settler or a builder for resorts.

I do not push strong production everywhere and I certainly rarely have a +5 production trade route.Just my style.

What I really do not like is following formulas to victory. When you can only win this game doing the same thing like V on high level I'll probably stop playing it.

The day I am forced to have every city with each city having a worker 1 turn from being built just so I can max the feudalism boost I will cry because I love the flexibility of this game and the options of doing things rather than the necessity

 

[king of nowhere]

Hello!

Just did deity science win twice in one day using this easy strategy. Standard/standard/continents(pangea).

- Build only slingers/archers until you have 8-10. Use them to conquer your neighbours while you have no penalty. On Deity civs forward settle you, and this is good. Fill in the holes with your own cities afterwards. You should end up with 8-12 cities. Peace out and play defensivly.

If you conquer your neighbors until you have 8-12 cities, then winning is easy, regardless of great zimbabwe. may as well go for a domination victory.
overall I think great zimbabwe is a nice perk, but not the linchpin of an easy victory. and I found spies to be a bit limited; they fist get eurekas aboout the very later technoologies, so they do not impact game. and by the time I reach those late technologies, I tech fast enough that it won't matter much to have the eurekas.

 

[trendy]

Thanks for the strong counter points trendy.

I agree that 5 cogs is quite optimistic by shortly past banking tech, but I think 4 is quite achievable. If I target my capital its the most likely to be high pop, and developed. Start with a commercial, then industrial, then one of military/dock and I'm at a 4 cog route.

For a science victory having this city then build the space port or big ben then makes sense too because I'm not giving up any science projects. Plus it gets all the extra bonus's from city states.

It my opinion (maybe I'm wrong) a super early campus isnt even that helpfull anyway because if you steam through the early parts of the tech/civics tree, districts go up in prodution by a lot; and what is it that really makes a fast any victory type? Having a large numbers of cities with high per turn output in your chosen VC type. The sonner my science output is 1 turning techs the sooner I'm winning. How far I was in the tree before this makes little difference because science overflows.

Also, gold = production is not true, because districts, wonders and projects cannot be bought. Yes you can buy builders to chop things, but this is regularly going to very limited.

Also I think Victoria is right that ocasionaly a 3f 2p type route can be really strong for a food poor city. Gold dosnt equate to food either. Sure you can also buy things like a granary or watermill but these are mostly inefficent in my experience.

Another thing to consider. If I'm spending gold to make up for less production then I'm not doubling it later on so you would need to calculate how many turns it will take you to get to around 20K in my experience and stop spending (depending on how many are left and if you get lucky) to turn into 40 ,to afford the rest of the Great Sienctists.

I'm actualy keen to give it a try. the only problem is you would have to find a good city to build it in and thats just not going to be every game.

Yeah 4 prod city is probably doable. I'd still say getting a campus would be better than something like a military district for the extra point production, but it's definitely something to consider I guess.

I've found that district buildings are great for gold purchases. Ofc you can't use gold to buy districts, but as long as you're not running out of things you can use gold to rush gold=production as far as I'm concerned. And I'm aware there are spots where extra food can be really good to have, but I've already mentioned there's ways to work around that such that it's really not that valuable anymore. Big Ben is a very valid issue, and something that I'd need to playtest a bit to figure out. My experimentation with Zimbabwe has been with cultural victory, and in that context that's not nearly as important. I think I'll try getting a sub-200 deity science victory with Zimbabwe next week to get a better idea.

I have nothing against wonders per se. If I am sitting there with big production city with nothing to do then sure. I'll always look for certain wonders like Extra card wonders but my window of opportunity seems to be smaller than others .
Early game wonders I normally prefer an extra district because that is stronger in my opinion.
Mid game is typically when I will try a few if I am not doing something else I feel I need
Late game I would rather have a settler or a builder for resorts.

I do not push strong production everywhere and I certainly rarely have a +5 production trade route.Just my style.

What I really do not like is following formulas to victory. When you can only win this game doing the same thing like V on high level I'll probably stop playing it.

The day I am forced to have every city with each city having a worker 1 turn from being built just so I can max the feudalism boost I will cry because I love the flexibility of this game and the options of doing things rather than the necessity

To each his own, but what I enjoy most about this game is optimizing play, and that typically constrains quite a bit what game choices I'm going to make. Given that the AI in this game is kind of terrible, playing optimally is hardly necessary to win (nor was it for 5).

 

[DrCron]

some games are just not winnable

I'm yet to see an "unwinnable" CIV 6 map. Seriously, if you have a turn 1 save file with this, I'd love to give it a try, sounds interesting.

Regarding OP's post, I fully agree that GZ is an excellent wonder, but I really don't think I get cows in my capitals 2/3 times. I don't even think it happens 50% of the times. But anyway you can plan for it whenever you see the cows, since it's pretty much guaranteed that the AI will not get this wonder, not even on Deity.

 

[Arms Longfellow]

I also have never seen an unwinnable game. That's not to say that I never lose on Deity, but if I do, it's always because I get too greedy in the early game and get taken out, not because, "Woe is me, half of my capital city tiles are tundra."

The two wonders you can usually get on Deity are Great Zimbabwe and strangely enough Coliseum, which I don't understand since the building restrictions aren't even THAT bad. The AI will beeline for Petra if they have even a single desert tile in their city, plopping Petra down on that one single desert tile, yet can't figure out the onerous complexity of placing a Coliseum adjacent to an Entertainment District.

 

[DrCron]

The two wonders you can usually get on Deity are Great Zimbabwe and strangely enough Coliseum

Venetian Arsenal is a much safer bet than the Colosseum, the AI never gets it. With the Colosseum there's a weird situation, either the AI gets it really early or they don't get it at all (the latter can happen even with China or Brazil on the game, on Deity). I have no idea why it happens.

 

[Victoria]

Venetian Arsenal is a much safer bet than the Colosseum, the AI never gets it. With the Colosseum there's a weird situation, either the AI gets it really early or they don't get it at all (the latter can happen even with China or Brazil on the game, on Deity). I have no idea why it happe

There is an xml file with civ wonder preferences in. I created a thread a few month back with the list. I think it's called "if you really want that wonder" . So if you are playing against a civ that prefers that wonder it will be harder to get it.

I practically always get Eiffel.

There was a deity game a long time ago where some mountains were in a shape that forced all 5 of Japan's club men straight into my capital. I restored a few times but it was pointless, even running away did not help. A couple of other people have had other similar losses around T10-15 that are just bad luck.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

After playing some more games, I have to conclude all Deity games are winnable on any settings remotely resembling Standard. Even the least promising starts I drew turned into steamrolls by T100.

There was a deity game a long time ago where some mountains were in a shape that forced all 5 of Japan's club men straight into my capital. I restored a few times but it was pointless, even running away did not help. A couple of other people have had other similar losses around T10-15 that are just bad luck.

These other people can step up and post a 4000BC.

 

[Victoria]

Well mine was early December and I do not need them to step up because I felt it.
I have not come across one since but I would suggest you may be being a little arrogant in approach and that will change when either someone posts one or you get one yourself you are brave enough to mention.

I am not an idiot and am someone who often gets things wrong but I know what happened on a grassy plain one day with a plains hill next to me, desert behind me and 5 German club men bearing down upon my 10 strength city

Staying there was pointless, running really had no options as beyond the desert was Pedro.

Not sure why I am even bothering, people rarely change their minds on this forum.

I was one of those in the early days that answered question on how to get around having 3 nasty neighbours on deity and know that anything is beatable once you are started. It's just getting started.

 

[DrCron]

These other people can step up and post a 4000BC.

I don't really think people are lying or anything like that. The problem is that CIV 6 doesn't create a turn 1 auto-save (the way CIV 4 did) and people don't tend to do this manually. It's a shame because I really would like to see what this "unwinnable" starts looks like. Not being a dick or anything, I'm honestly curious. Unwinnable deity starts are a much more common thing on CIV 4, but I'm yet to see one here.

There was a deity game a long time ago where some mountains were in a shape that forced all 5 of Japan's club men straight into my capital

On the Russia game I uploaded to my channel I spawned semi-isolated in a peninsula with Rome very close to me. Trajan Dow'd me on turn 19 and had 5 warriors next to my capital on turn 20. It was a very stressful early game but I managed to survive. That being said, I settled behind a river which isn't always possible. You can see that start here if you are interested: