Greece - Antiquity Age Civilization Discussion

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Due to ages, I'd be highly surprised to see any unique units or infrastructure attached to leaders in Civ7.

I know. But I need some consolation to get Alexander.

The more I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if both Augustus and Alexander default to both Rome and Greece. They've already presented Augustus as being a cultural leader that fits in with the cultural side of Rome. What if he fits in also with the cultural side of Greece, while Alexander can fit in with the militaristic side of both?

Unfortunately, most cool symbols are already taken by far right movements

Isn't that basically the Romans icon minus the logo in the middle?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Oh, Alexander will definitely return. My only wish is that the Hetairoi will return as a Unique Leader Unit as well.

I don't think we'll see leader-specific military units. They would be only effective in a certain age, that's the thing which this game tries to avoid with civ switching.

 

[The Fanatical]

Only the Agema, the 'Spearhead Squadron' - that's where all the senior officers and nobles were when they didn't have a separate command, like Ptolemy at the Battle of Gaugamela (Arrian used his autobiography for his account of the battle, and it is entirely from the viewpoint looking over Alexander's shoulder, who led the Agema as usual)



Sigh. It's such a simple thing to get right. The Lambda (upside down 'V') on the shield was the State symbol of Sparta (Lacaedemon) and it is consistently described in Greek contemporary accounts as being Red ("The Red Lambdas gleaming . . .") not white or green or whatever. I realize that the colors of shields and uniforms and crests are being used to show (presumably) troops from different Civs (or, I believe the black and white scheme may be reserved for City States/minor powers) but in that case NOBODY would be carrying a shield with a Lambda on it: the Spartans would be Not Pleased if you tried that, and they were not people you wanted Not Pleased with you.

Let's not be too harsh on them.

At least from what I can see they gave some nice symbols on the hoplitic shields this time, unlike Civilization 6 where there were a few ugly ones and Civilization 5 where only one existed on the shields. The Triskelion which was associated with Syracuse, the Pegasus which was associated with the Corinthian hero Bellerophon and Chimera which was widely used, but the mythic monster was thought to originate in Lycia in Minor Asia.

I'm still shocked though with the absence of the famous Athenian owl and the Gorgoneion since Civilization 6. Both of them would have been more impressive shields icons instead of a Greek kantharos (vase). As for the Lambda, was it really upside down? I think no such information is given.

 

[pokiehl]

There was Greece. And the Greece man was happy.

I am really hoping we can still get a Macedon civ too…Alexander I’m sure is coming back, but I want more!

 

[The Fanatical]

I don't think we'll see leader-specific military units. They would be only effective in a certain age, that's the thing which this game tries to avoid with civ switching.

Yes, but Ages are longer now, aren't they? I don't see why it won't be possible to add additional Unique Units via Leaders, since each civilization has at least two Unique Buildings and a Quarter.

If they don't include Unique Units alongside Leaders then no more Tagma and Dromon for the Byzantines, which was amazing to see both of them included in one game. Again, no more Hetairoi alongside Alexander unless a separate Macedonian civilization from Greece is included.

 

[Siptah]

I am really hoping we can still get a Macedon civ too…Alexander I’m sure is coming back, but I want more!

Macedon antiquity civ. Unlocks Abbasids, Chola, Mongols, Safavids. I can imagine the uproar But yes, Macedon civ would be nice. Or actually, with the new system and the possibilities of *many* civs, give me the Kingdom of Macedon, Ptolemaic Egypt, Commagene, and Seleucids as civs and Antigonos as a leader.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yes, but Ages are longer now, aren't they? I don't see why it won't be possible to add additional Unique Units via Leaders, since each civilization has at least two Unique Buildings and a Quarter.

If they don't include Unique Units alongside Leaders then no more Tagma and Dromon for the Byzantines, which was amazing to see both of them included in one game. Again, no more Hetairoi alongside Alexander unless a separate Macedonian civilization from Greece is included.

We have yet to see it, but I wouldn't be surprised if some civs came with two militaristic UU's instead of a civilian and military one. Macedon comes to mind as being one if they ever are released.

 

[The Fanatical]

I am really hoping we can still get a Macedon civ too…Alexander I’m sure is coming back, but I want more!

It can happen, but I don't know how probable it will be. If Macedon is included separately from Greece it will just be the militarized version of Greece, and it will need to follow the exact same historical path as Greece, so this begs the question, can multiple civilizations have the same historical path? Also, what the Unique Buildings would be? Gymnasium and Hellenistic Tomb? Basilikoi Paides wasn't even a building and felt weird in Civilization 6.

Tomb of the Palmettes​

 

[Siptah]

It can happen, but I don't know how probable it will be. If Macedon is included separately from Greece it will just be the militarized version of Greece, and it will need to follow the exact same historical path as Greece, so this begs the question, can multiple civilizations have the same historical path? Also, what the Unique Buildings would be? Gymnasium and Hellenistic Tomb? Basilikoi Paides wasn't even a building and felt weird in Civilization 6.

Tomb of the Palmettes​

View attachment 703258

Their (royal) tombs are impressive, but how about simply a unique urban district? Their cities and villas were pretty special, but naming is an issue.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It can happen, but I don't know how probable it will be. If Macedon is included separately from Greece it will just be the militarized version of Greece, and it will need to follow the exact same historical path as Greece, so this begs the question, can multiple civilizations have the same historical path? Also, what the Unique Buildings would be? Gymnasium and Hellenistic Tomb? Basilikoi Paides wasn't even a building and felt weird in Civilization 6.

Tomb of the Palmettes​

View attachment 703258

Some civs have only got one building, like Aksum and Songhai, so not having two isn't an issue.

Regarding the Basilikoi Paides I always envisioned the building to function similar to an ancient gymnasium, or early military academy, so I wouldn't mind if the idea returned in some form no matter what it would be called.

 

[Navelgazer]

The fact that Archimedes is missing completely from the Greek list of logoi, points towards him potentially being the Greek leader.

Nah, they've already confirmed that there are no Eurekas in this game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Let's not be too harsh on them.

At least from what I can see they gave some nice symbols on the hoplitic shields this time, unlike Civilization 6 where there were a few ugly ones and Civilization 5 where only one existed on the shields. The Triskelion which was associated with Syracuse, the Pegasus which was associated with the Corinthian hero Bellerophon and Chimera which was widely used, but the mythic monster was thought to originate in Lycia in Minor Asia.

I'm still shocked though with the absence of the famous Athenian owl and the Gorgoneion since Civilization 6. Both of them would have been more impressive shields icons instead of a Greek kantharos (vase). As for the Lambda, was it really upside down? I think no such information is given.

No question, the detail and attention to the graphic elements in Civ VII is head, shoulders and helmet crest above any previous Civ game.
But the Greek shield designs give so much scope for visual puns and some beautiful historical 'in jokes':

Another very common 'state' shield design was Hercules' club, the symbol of Thebes - the city state that ended Sparta's reign as the premier land military power in Greece. It would be neat to see all the Lambdas on the shields replaced by vertical wooden clubs at a certain point!

One Athenian, showing off his new Aspis (shield), had a life-sized picture of a Fly on it. Everyone said, "But the enemy will never be able to see that!" His reply:

"I'll get close enough that they can see it."

Pure Bravado, but the stuff of battles in every age.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Nah, they've already confirmed that there are no Eurekas in this game.

- But as long as there are bathtubs there's still a chance . . .

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I’m afraid we’re going to get a lot of inconsistencies like this, as now the selection of jersey colors will be not directly related to the civ. Glaring-funny combinations could be a white-on-blue soviet star, in example.

That would be particularly unfortunate since a white five-pointed star on a blue roundel was the insignia of the United States Army Air Forces from the 1930s through WWII. Of course, you could always say that all the Soviet aircraft are from Lend-Lease . . .

 

[The Fanatical]

Their (royal) tombs are impressive, but how about simply a unique urban district? Their cities and villas were pretty special, but naming is an issue.

The only thing I can think of is the Mouseion. It can be a Unique Quarter that focuses on culture and/or science. It can be considered a World Wonder, but Parthenon returned as a Unique Building, so why not.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The only thing I can think of is the Mouseion. It can be a Unique Quarter that focuses on culture and/or science. It can be considered a World Wonder, but Parthenon returned as a Unique Building, so why not.

We have no idea what the designers' take is, but the Parthenon was, basically, another classic Greek Temple. Perfectly proportioned, beautifully finished, but no different in kind from any of dozens of other Greek Temples.

The Mouseion was, in the Greco-Middle Eastern Antiquity context, absolutely Unique. Dionysius' Ortega Workshop approached it in applied engineering for a few years, but nothing matched it for the scope and depth of its scientific production. It's easy to forget how much of 'Ancient Science' that we know about came out of publications from the Mouseion: Euclid's Geometry, Ptolemy's Almagest, Galen on medicine, Dioscorides on herbal botany' - these were all 'classic ' texts informing other thinkers throughout the Medieval period in both Europe (after the translation movement in Toledo got started around 1000 CE) and the Middle East (House of Wisdom in Baghdad and other cities). Only Aristotle's and Archimedes' writings had similar impact, and the Mouseion produced commentaries on both of those, as well.

IF there is to be a Scientific Wonder in Antiquity there really is nothing to compare with the Mouseion (And before you comment, the Nalanda Mahavihara, another great center of learning, is dated to 427 CE, which is after the start of the Exploration Age in 400 CE)

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Take 'em back then

Sounds good in principal, but in practice it's like after your dog gets its tongue into the mug you left on the coffee table.

 

[The Fanatical]

We have no idea what the designers' take is, but the Parthenon was, basically, another classic Greek Temple. Perfectly proportioned, beautifully finished, but no different in kind from any of dozens of other Greek Temples.

The Mouseion was, in the Greco-Middle Eastern Antiquity context, abolutely Unique. Dionysius' Ortega Workshop approached it in applied engineering for a few years, but nothing matched it for the scope and depth of its scientific production. It's easy to forget how much of 'Ancient Science' that we know about came out of publications from the Mouseion: Euclid's Geometry, Ptolemy's Almagest, Galen on medicine, Dioscorides on herbal botany' - these were all 'classic ' texts informing other thinkers throughout the Medieval period in both Europe (after the translation movement in Toledo got started around 1000 CE) and the Middle East (House of Wisdom in Baghdad and other cities). Only Aristotle's and Archimedes' writings had similar impact, and the Mouseion produced commentaries on both of those, as well.

IF there is to be a Scientific Wonder in Antiquity there really is nothing to compare with the Mouseion (And before you comment, the Nalanda Mahavihara, another great center of learning, is dated to 427 CE, which is after the start of the Exploration Age in 400 CE)

I have to disagree here. The Parthenon wasn't just another Greek temple. The blending of two orders, the statue of Athena it housed, its architectural refinements, the quality of its materials, sculptures and construction made it unique.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I have to disagree here. The Parthenon wasn't just another Greek temple. The blending of two orders, the statue of Athena it housed, its architectural refinements, the quality of its materials, sculptures and construction made it unique.

Having had the opportunity to walk the Parthenon many, many years ago (before they fenced it off) I will grant that it is a stunning structure, but the statue of Athena was no different in scope and artistic merit from the Statue of Zeus in another temple while the architectural form of the building is classic peripteral style dating back unchanged for centuries (possibly to the one of the earliest temples to Artemis).

It is considered to be the culmination of the classic 'doric' style and incorporates many subtle architectural and geometric touches (like the fact that there are virtually no absolutely straight lines in any of the structural components) but that makes it different only in degree of expertise in design and construction, not a unique departure from the classic Greek temple.

 

[The Fanatical]

Having had the opportunity to walk the Parthenon many, many years ago (before they fenced it off) I will grant that it is a stunning structure, but the statue of Athena was no different in scope and artistic merit from the Statue of Zeus in another temple while the architectural form of the building is classic peripteral style dating back unchanged for centuries (possibly to the one of the earliest temples to Artemis).

It is considered to be the culmination of the classic 'doric' style and incorporates many subtle architectural and geometric touches (like the fact that there are virtually no absolutely straight lines in any of the structural components) but that makes it different only in degree of expertise in design and construction, not a unique departure from the classic Greek temple.

And the Statue of Zeus was one of the seven Wonders of the ancient world, wasn't it? Made by none other than the man who made the statue of Athena. The Parthenon doesn't have to be entirely unique from other ancient Greek temples in order to deserve a spot as a Wold Wonder. At the very least it was the most impressive temple of the Doric order with additional unique elements.