Greece - Antiquity Age Civilization Discussion

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Omega satisfies those criteria. Another good choice might be the Greek lyre. This is what the nice mod Better Civilization Icons used for Civ 6 Greeks.

Funny thing about the lyre is its almost just an Omega symbol anyways, just flipped over with strings attached.

 

[The Fanatical]

Certainly not disputing that the Vergina Sun has been found elsewhere, but the connotation today is with the Argeads and Macedon, and Civ has already established that it's the symbol for Macedon with Civ 6.

Again, the strongest assocation today is what matters most, because the goal of a symbol is to immediately communicate accurate information to the viewer.

I don't disagree, but unless Firaxis has decided to include a separate Macedonian civilization in an expansion, I don't see why it wouldn't have been a better symbol than the Omega, since it was widely used by all the ancient Greeks.

 

[Kyriakos]

Again, the strongest assocation today is what matters most, because the goal of a symbol is to immediately communicate accurate information to the viewer.

I don't think that is true. It's highly unlikely Firaxis thought this through as you presented, and it appears to be trying to construct a reasoning backwards. Moreover, the "too ornate" argument also doesn't hold water (as mentioned above). Would the US have the dollar sign as a flag just because it is simple to draw and famous? ^^ Greece should have something it's primarily known for, and not a letter.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

I don't think that is true. It's highly unlikely Firaxis thought this through as you presented, and it appears to be trying to construct a reasoning backwards. Moreover, the "too ornate" argument also doesn't hold water (as mentioned above). Would the US have the dollar sign as a flag? ^^ Greece should have something its primarily known for, and not a letter.

Yeah, I have a feeling FXS chose a symbol that comes off as Greek to other Americans, not what's seen as Greek by, well, Greeks

 

[Kyriakos]

^I probably am the only Greek person in this thread (?), but the majority here is against using Ω.
Even if we hypothesize a very basic version of Americans (which I don't suggest), I am sure that they'd know of stuff like the front of a trireme with the Eye, which could be an emblem too.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I don't disagree, but unless Firaxis has decided to include a separate Macedonian civilization in an expansion, I don't see why it wouldn't have been a better symbol than the Omega, since it was widely used by all the ancient Greeks.

I think the biggest problem with the Vergina sun is that it just isn't very distinct. A lot of civs could feasibly use sun- or star-based symbols and it just make it more difficult to read them apart from each other at a glance. (I feel the same way about eagles and lions). I think Civ VI especially tried to really refine symbol selection to be more unique, but even there I don't think they totally succeeded.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The real problem with a 'Greek Symbol' is that there really was no single symbol for all the various Greek poleis, and very few that were other than individual.

The most common source for symbols is the blazons known from Greek shields

Sparta famously used the Greek letter Lambda: λ
The city Sicyon used the Greek S: Σ
The city of Messenia (in Sicily) used: Μ
Thebes famously used Hercule's club.
Mantinea used a Trident
Athenians frequently used a Gorgon's head, because it was associated with Athena

Other individuals used anything from mythical animals (the winged horse Bellerophon was a favorite) or real animals, like birds or serpents (associated with Apollo) or simply abstract symbols, like patterns of geometric shapes and lines.

But there's nothing really Universally Greek.

 

[The Fanatical]

Thebes famously used Hercule's club.

Now that you mention it, Hercules's club is simple and recognizable. I would prefer it over the Omega.

 

[Kyriakos]

The real problem with a 'Greek Symbol' is that there really was no single symbol for all the various Greek poleis, and very few that were other than individual.

The most common source for symbols is the blazons known from Greek shields

Sparta famously used the Greek letter Lambda: λ
The city Sicyon used the Greek S: Σ
The city of Messenia (in Sicily) used: Μ
Thebes famously used Hercule's club.
Mantinea used a Trident
Athenians frequently used a Gorgon's head, because it was associated with Athena

Other individuals used anything from mythical animals (the winged horse Bellerophon was a favorite) or real animals, like birds or serpents (associated with Apollo) or simply abstract symbols, like patterns of geometric shapes and lines.

But there's nothing really Universally Greek.

The meander is universally Greek, I'd argue ^^
Actually there's no shortage of very distinctly Greek emblems. Somehow the fact there are so many, and so prevalent, leads to... a problem with choosing a non-terrible and basic one like Omega?
Sorry but I don't buy it.
An entire sea of such emblems was mentioned here, from the anthemion (in every Greek temple top) to the Gorgon, geometrical patterns, the very famous Sun of Vergina and hero/god paraphernalia. The staff of Asclepios, the staff of Hermes, the bolt of Zeus, the trident of Poseidon, even a peacock to represent Hera and... scores more... all massively better than Omega.

 

[pokiehl]

The good news is icons are typically simple to mod, and even moreso in Civ 6 and Civ 7 since colors are no longer “baked in” so you just need an alpha.

So draw or edit an icon you like and it won’t be a big issue to replace it in-game.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not saying it will be a problem to mod. It's just sloppy and uninspired a choice.
It's not a game-breaking issue, obviously ^^

 

[AriochIV]

The omega has been the symbol for Greece in Civilization for 14 years now. Suddenly it's intolerable?

 

[Kyriakos]

It's not intolerable, just a very basic choice imo, when so many better ones are available.
In a way choosing Omega is the last (Omega) choice.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Personally, I'm very fond of the Athenian Owl, even for a unified Greece which is often (blatantly) based on the Athenian league anyway:

It looks pretty cool on a few mock-up icons by comparison.

I don't mind the better icons mod's lyre either. I don't dislike the omega either, but letters always feel lazy. Rome's symbol isn't just a capitalized SPQR either, isn't it?

 

[The Fanatical]

The omega has been the symbol for Greece in Civilization for 14 years now. Suddenly it's intolerable?

No, but something new and more associated with ancient Greece was expected this time.

Based on what I have seen, this won't be the only disappointing artistic thing about this game for me. For instance, the Purabhettarah Unique Unit has Persian shields on its howdah. Not only the Persian Immortals aren't heavily inspired by Persian reliefs from Persepolis, but they also carry circular colourful inaccurate shields and their main weapons are swords. I conclude that modding capabilities need to come to the rescue soon after launch.

 

[NickTheGreek!]

Yes the owl is certainly better than the omega even though it screams "Athens" Dont know how they came up with the omega, so far i know it was never a representing symbol of anything Greek. Nothing more really than the last letter in the alphabet.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Also Civ4's icon for Greece was a helmet. (A Spartan one I believe but don't quote me on that). So if we're not using such an icon for the hoplite, we can use it for Greece proper instead:

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Also Civ4's icon for Greece was a helmet. (A Spartan one I believe but don't quote me on that). So if we're not using such an icon for the hoplite, we can use it for Greece proper instead:

View attachment 706848

There actually isn't such a thing as a 'Spartan" helmet. This is the classic Corinthian style helmet, probably the one most associated with the Hoplites. In fact, though, it restricted vision so much that it was pretty quickly (by 490 BCE) replaced by the Calcidian helmet, which was much more open in front and on the lower face.

The nearest thing to a Spartan 'style' was that by 400 BCE they weren't wearing metal helmets or body armor at all: to increase mobility they lightened their load to a leather or canvas 'spolas' or tunic and a leather or felt 'pilos' conical cap. Since they drilled with their shields constantly, they had come to rely on the big Aspis wood, leather and metal shield for most of their protection.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

There actually isn't such a thing as a 'Spartan" helmet. This is the classic Corinthian style helmet, probably the one most associated with the Hoplites. In fact, though, it restricted vision so much that it was pretty quickly (by 490 BCE) replaced by the Calcidian helmet, which was much more open in front and on the lower face.

The nearest thing to a Spartan 'style' was that by 400 BCE they weren't wearing metal helmets or body armor at all: to increase mobility they lightened their load to a leather or canvas 'spolas' or tunic and a leather or felt 'pilos' conical cap. Since they drilled with their shields constantly, they had come to rely on the big Aspis wood, leather and metal shield for most of their protection.

The other emblem of Greece preferred by FXis is Omega. I don't think I've seen one written on a Hoplon as an emblem. but instead either Scorpion or Medusa's head were preferred.

Should Medusa Head be Greece Emblem instead?

https://www.vectorstock.com/royalty-free-vector/medusa-gorgon-golden-head-on-a-shield-hand-drawn-vector-21809736

 

[Lord Lakely]

I don't dislike it. The one on the right is more traditional but VERY busy though.