greece is unraveling

[mrt144]

To bad for you they have the Euro. If they didn't, the Drachma would be so worthless you could almost buy the Acropolis by next year.

Doesn't this show the value of the euro?

 

[Yeekim]

The government calls us to pay for the cost of Education. Calls you the parents, your children who study, us who teach.

Outrageous, isn't it? Everyone knows it's the Germans who should be paying for this!
I quite honestly can't find words to adequately express how much I despise these welfare addicts.

 

[warpus]

When it comes to those murders, I know EXACTLY who did it. We have lots of them in Norway too. They are young anarchists who have NEVER done anything worthwhile in their lifes. And now when people begin to demonstrate for reasons unknown to them(or rather above their comprehension), they simply follow and begin to throw homemade firebombs around. These far left wingers are just as bad as neo nazis.

And as far as I've heard there's 20 000 demonstrators. That's not much in such a big city. The way I see it, the average Greek is okay with the cuts, they just want to punish the politicians who got them in this mess. And they also want the rich to take bigger burdens.

From what I've been reading a lot of the fault does lie with the politicians, but Greece as a whole is an incredibly corrupt country. The most corrupt in Europe, some people claim, but that probably does not factor in uhhh Albania? Maybe it does..

Apparently there is TONS of tax fraud and a huge sense of entitlement.. not only that, public workers had it reallllll good, being able to retire super early, getting 14 paycheques a year instead of 12, amazing benefits etc.

Stop your whining, you Greek crybabies!

 

[Shekwan]

If Greece is corrupt, then I'm gonna have to get my popcorn ready for when the EU takes a look at Ireland.

 

[Imrahil91]

From what I've been reading a lot of the fault does lie with the politicians, but Greece as a whole is an incredibly corrupt country. The most corrupt in Europe, some people claim, but that probably does not factor in uhhh Albania? Maybe it does..

Apparently there is TONS of tax fraud and a huge sense of entitlement.. not only that, public workers had it reallllll good, being able to retire super early, getting 14 paycheques a year instead of 12, amazing benefits etc.

Stop your whining, you Greek crybabies!

I have a feeling that's how it is everywhere south of the Alps.

 

[Lillefix]

One interesting thing is how you define corruption. So listen to this.

I just went to the US with a friend who already was there on a business trip with the ministry of defense. After he finished his courses or meetings or whatever(which in my opinion could have been done by video and then saving both money and environment), we then rented a car, which the military paid for.

Why did the military pay for one week of car rental plus some fuel(around $1800 in all)? Well, it was considered a part of my friend's homeward trip from the meeting. And this was common btw. People stayed longer, rented cars and let the military pay for it.

I call that borderlining corruption. The people working in the military probably don't think so, because these costs are open for all to see, it's completely transparent(I think). But still, these are taxpayer money funding people's vacations. What do you think? Is this acceptable?

 

[Yeekim]

Not only that, public workers had it reallllll good, being able to retire super early, getting 14 paycheques a year instead of 12, amazing benefits etc.

Yeah, I'd love to see what the Greeks would do if the government would slash public sector wages by 50% as Latvia did... Burn down the whole country in "rightful anger"?
These people have spent themselves into a public debt of ~110% of GDP, which is what? Three annual budgets? Four? And they start throwing petrol bombs if government plans cutting the yearly deficit from 13% to 8%?
Give me a break.

 

[Godwynn]

Europe shows once again that the Southern Europeans cannot run their nations as well as the Northern Europeans.

 

[Karalysia]

Why should the people of Greece be forced to pay for the crimes of the capitalist elite? The Greeks have the right idea. Let the capitalists burn.

 

[Yeekim]

Why should the people of Greece be forced to pay for the crimes of the capitalist elite? The Greeks have the right idea. Let the capitalists burn.

So these three or four annual budgets they have spent in advance were spent on "capitalist elite"? Fascinating, tell us more.

 

[DinoDoc]

Some fun facts about the uselessness of Greece:

http://www.thestar.com/business/art...-you-get-a-bonus-for-showing-up-for-work?bn=1

In Greece you get a bonus for showing up for work

Dina Kyriakidou
Reuters News Agency

From a bonus for showing up to work to a dead father’s pension going to an unmarried daughter, arcane benefits bloat Greece’s budget by billions of euros a year.

As part of its efforts to end its debt crisis and escape default, Greece has pledged to start cutting back on such largesse, but decades of chaotic accounting at ministries means the exact statistics are hard to come by.

Some of the spending the government could cut:

SPOILED SPINSTERS

Tens of thousands of unmarried or divorced daughters of civil servants collect their dead parents’ pensions, weighing on a social security system that experts say will collapse in 15 years unless it is overhauled.

About 40,000 women benefit from the allowance at an annual cost of around 550 million euros ($731.5 million Cdn.), according to economic website capital.gr.

While the law protects civil servants from dismissal, it allows them to retire with a pension in their 40s.

Greek pension spending is expected to rise by 12 per cent of gross domestic product by 2050, according to European Union data. That compares with an EU average of less than 3 per cent of GDP.

The government has pledged to overhaul the social security system by raising the retirement age and banning early retirement. It plans to introduce a bill by May.

CHRISTMAS PRESENTS

In a system where bonuses can add 5 to 1,300 euros to a monthly paycheck, some civil servants are paid extra for using a computer. Some get a bonus for speaking a foreign language and others for arriving at work on time, while many foresters get a bonus for working outdoors. All Greek public and private sector workers get 14 monthly salary payments a year, a structure aimed at keeping basic monthly salaries, and the pensions that are based on them, low.

Half a month’s extra salary is paid at Easter and another half during the summer. The 14th salary is paid to civil servants at Christmas when the whole economy is geared to consuming it. Taxis, restaurants and hairdressers are legally allowed to charge extra as a “Christmas present.”

The government has already trimmed most bonuses by 12 per cent and Christmas and Easter salary bonuses by 30 per cent as part of its austerity plan, saving 1.7 billion euros ($2.26 billion).

FLYING FOR FREE

Labour unions foiled government attempts to sell debt-ridden Olympic Airways for decades, costing Greek taxpayers millions while employees enjoyed generous benefits—their family members could fly around the world for free.

The EU took disciplinary measures against Athens for pouring state money into the loss-making airline, even after private local airlines began serving similar routes for less.

Olympic was sold in 2008, but only after the state lavishly compensated or re-hired about 4,600 employees. Many blocked Athens’ thoroughfares recently because they had not received all their severance money.

The state owns 74 companies, mainly utilities and transport firms, many of which are overstaffed and loss-making, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The main rail company employs about 9,000 people and reported losses of 800 million euros ($1.06 billion) in 2008.

The government has said it will merge some state companies and sell stakes in others.

COMMITTEE FOR WHAT?

Hundreds of state-appointed committees employ staff though it is not clear what they all do. Greece has a committee to manage Lake Kopais, which dried out in the 1930s.

One Greek newspaper estimated that committees employ more than 10,000 people and cost over 220 million euros ($292.6 million) a year.

Coming through on a pre-election pledge to cut such waste, the government recently announced it would shut down or merge at least 200 such committees that have outlived their usefulness.

COSTLY ARMS

Tensions with arch-rival Turkey have kept Greek military spending well above that of other EU members, reaching 14 billion euros, or 6 per cent of GDP, in 2007 and 2009.

Budget woes have limited military procurements and the 2010 defence budget now stands at 6.7 billion euros ($8.91 billion).

But nearly 80 per cent of Defence Ministry spending goes on administrative costs and payments of army staff. The government has said it will gradually reduce costs and spending on arms purchases will be contained to 1.8 billion euros.

 

[Oerdin]

The Greek people refuse to surrender to capitalist exploitation, this so called "bailout" would chain the Greek people in debt for decades, the intrest rates are insane, the austerity imposed outrageous, Greek is correct in resisting.

Greece should default, then it should withdraw from the Euro and then devalue its currency. Problem solved, inflation can be dealt with.

When I read junk like this it makes me want to tell the IMF not to help bailout the Greeks. Let the bastards sink and then they can figure out on their own why spending much more then you make doesn't work in the long run.

 

[Karalysia]

So these three or four annual budgets they have spent in advance were spent on "capitalist elite"? Fascinating, tell us more.

Spent by the capitalist elite for a variety of purposes most for their own benefit. That includes their welfare state, designed to preserve the capitalist system. The Greeks are strong socialists as a people. They would have won the Civil War following WWII if not for the British and American imperialists and Stalin's unwilligness to support the reveloution. The simmering socialist spirit of the Greek people could only be quelled with a generous welfare capitalist state. Now as the welfare state crumbles the Greeks once more rise in the spirit of reveloution. What didn't happen before will happen now.

The best soloution for Greece right now is to default on its debt, to witdraw from the Eurozone, devalue their currency, and of course adopt a socialist economy and put the means of productions in the hands of their workers.

 

[Oerdin]

Outrageous, isn't it? Everyone knows it's the Germans who should be paying for this!
I quite honestly can't find words to adequately express how much I despise these welfare addicts.

Apparently the average Greek government worker doesn't get paid very much but to lower unemployment there are literally massive amounts of government workers none of which actually do much of anything. Fire them by the truckload. Yes, in the short run this will make the recession worse but in the long run it will help get the country back onto solid footing. They have to start spending less then they make or else this debt crisis will never end.

"BooHoo! We can't pay the debt we already have but we want people to give us more money (which we won't be able to pay back)!" They need those bums off of the government's rolls and in the private sector. Either that or the bums need to immigrate to some place where they actually can get a productive job but the era of money for nothing is over.

 

[Karalysia]

Or they could drop the Euro and then devalue their currency so they won't have to fire anyone.

 

[DinoDoc]

Or they could stop being useless?

 

[Oerdin]

Why should the people of Greece be forced to pay for the crimes of the capitalist elite?

Wow, you are a very special poster. Yep, all that out of control government welfare spending were "crimes of the capitalist elite"? Because, clearly, it was the capitalists who demanded more welfare for people who didn't work.

 

[Oerdin]

Or they could drop the Euro and then devalue their currency so they won't have to fire anyone.

So everyone else in the Euro Zone should have their savings wiped out because the Greeks are too stupid and lazy to actually spend less then they make?

Edit: Ah, I see now that you wanted them to drop the Euro. Good idea, I think every Euro Zone country would love to see the welfare queens gone.

Or they could stop being useless?

I can't believe I'm typing this but DD is on the right track.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Just a question: California has an economy about 5 times larger than Greece, and it suffers from the same risk of bankrupcy.

Why everyone considers the solution in the case of California is federal funds support whereas in the case of Greece it would be to break up from the euro area? Why do we hear all those racist craps about Greeks unable to run an economy whereas we never hear the same about Californians?

The solution to the crisis is clearly not about Greece leaving the euro area. It's about giving to the euro the tools it needs to defend itself:

1. Creating a fiscal governance which would replace the stability pact: Euro area countries agree on deficit targets before elaborating their national budget.
2. Creating a "Euro area Fund", which would have the ability to support endangered economies, or take control over bad governments disrespecting agreements.

Once you have both, then the ECB can have not only as objective to fight inflation, but also to support growth.


That's the only long term solution. That's the only way to bring back confidence into markets. But that's also what won't be made, because our heads of government have clearly not the guts to do so.

 

[Oerdin]

California is in no risk to bankruptcy nor has it ever defaulted on any debts nor even come close to doing so. Yep, our politicians are worthless dirtbags who never want to cut spending or raise taxes (part of it is the stupid 2/3rds law passed in the 1980's) but the fact remains we are much, much, much better off then the Greeks.

Also California's total debt to GDP ratio is very low (much better then France's or the UK's) unlike the Greeks who have over 100% debt to GDP.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/166473-gary-a/47659-california-debt-to-gdp-ratio-is-very-low