Greece's obligatory Civ VII Thread

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Since it seems like threads like these are inevitable, I figured I might as well jump on the bandwagon with one of the more challenging civs to represent.

So, with Greece, there are a couple of unique recurring questions when it comes to portraying them in Civ.
  1. How do we choose a leader for a culture that was never united under a single government?
  2. Do we choose Alex again or do we maintain the Greece/Macedon split?
  3. And of course, if we don't just go with Alex, who do we choose to lead Greece? Do we try a multiple leader approach, like Civ VI?
And, there's always the difficulty of choosing Greece's abilities. Philosophical and governmental developments (and how those are translated into gameplay), military and naval prowess, and contributions to the arts and sciences are all possible options. But, I feel like any Greece design will be mostly shaped by their leader and the city-state they called home. Obviously, a leader from Sparta is going to have a different game plan than that of an Athenian.

And as a final note, if Firaxis insists on calling the entire Civ "Greece" instead of just "Classical Greece" when their toolkit never focuses on anything past that era, is it too unreasonable to ask for some Greek War of Independence representation? Even just a unique unit from the time period would be nice. It's not necessary, but from my experience it doesn't get much attention and introducing it to the Civ playerbase would be a start. Plus, it's really the only other dimension of Greek stuff you can pull from without stepping on the feet of the inevitable Byzantine civ.

That is... unless we want to go all the way back to Minoans... :think:
 
I think the most reasonable answer is hopefully go with multiple leaders. The two leaders I would pick is Pericles and Alexander.

Pericles would focus more on diplomacy and comes with the Trireme UU. The trireme can gain influence points when in a city-state's border. Gain diplo favor when you are the suzerain. An alternative is he gets an Odeon UB instead granting culture and influence points/diplo favor.

Alexander focuses on conquest and can have a similar Hellenistic Fusion ability where he gains culture and science from conquering cities. Comes with Hetairoi UU and can do the same thing.

As for the UU Hoplite is inevitable

Unique Infrastructure: Gymnasium (earlier university replacement or Campus district?)- Grants culture and science with Great People generation as well as experience points toward military units trained in the city.

The Civ ability can deal with government. It might be interesting if Greece was able to choose another government earlier than usual in the Ancient era. Also Diplo favor from number of citizens too. Maybe call it Polis.
 
Leader: Achilles: Can only declare joint wars but cannot participate them until after his ally's capital has been conquered, after which all of his units gain +50 combat strength.
Civ Ability: Odyssey: Ships move slower but generate culture each turn they move.
Unique Infrastructure: Labyrinth
Unique Unit: Myrmidon

This is my revenge for the Epic of Gilgamesh Civilization. :satan:
 
Civ Ability: Odyssey: Ships move slower but generate culture each turn they move.

I cannot describe to you how perfect that is :lol:
 
Leader: Achilles: Can only declare joint wars but cannot participate them until after his ally's capital has been conquered, after which all of his units gain +50 combat strength.
Civ Ability: Odyssey: Ships move slower but generate culture each turn they move.
Unique Infrastructure: Labyrinth
Unique Unit: Myrmidon

This is my revenge for the Epic of Gilgamesh Civilization. :satan:
I like the design. For a Civ Mythology spinoff game. :p
 
I would give Greece two leaders like in Civ VI, Pericles and Alexander would be my picks.

Besides hoplites, they could also have Ezones mountain infantry, representing the balkan wars pre WW1. Those units look very distinct.
 
Now that I think of it, maybe instead of two leaders we could get dual civs, so first you choose Greece and then specify beytween classical and modern. Both have the same music, general aestethic and maybe some timeless ability. But they have different leader, unit and city list (maybe also building).

Alternately, future civ game could have two - three iterations for some civs, which change in appropriate eras, so you start with ancient style Greece and transform into modern style Greece in the industrial age. Let's not think about Byzantium here :d

Anyway, ancient Greece would be lovely with
- Themistocles
- His ability focusing on navy, trade and colonies
- Unique naval unit

While SCIENCE (+ maybe culture) ability is an ability working for both iterations.

And then there is a modern Greece with a different leader, ability, infantry unit, city list. The problem with modern Greece is that, let's be honest, it has never been very powerful or famous in any modern regard, so I have no idea what would I give them here.
 
Did not realize people wanted some modern Greek representation? :confused:

Obviously their Great people can get combat strength and when they die they leave behind a Great Work and a burst of culture. Lord Byron anyone? :mischief:

Edit: Actually this could apply to Classical Greece as well considering many poets, artists and philosophers, fought as hoplites during wars. :lol:
 
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Did not realize people wanted some modern Greek representation? :confused:
I'm a bit surprised by that as well.

Obviously their Great people can get combat strength and when they die they leave behind a Great Work and a burst of culture. Lord Byron anyone? :mischief:
The only list of Great People list Lord Byron belongs on is Great Libertines; people don't read him for his poetic talent. :p (He's not horrible, but honestly he's the least of the Romantics. He can't compare with Blake, Keats, Wordsworth, Coleridge--even Shelley.)
 
Is Argamennon a good leader actually? (A mycenian king who started Invasion of Troy)

If Greece and Macedon are a separate civ. then
1. Either Phillip or Alexander III (The actual name of Alexander the Great, a person later known as 'Iscandar') will lead
2. UU can be Hetairoi (Heavycav, for Alexander III), and Pezhetairoi (Strong anticav unit with strong attacks when attacking, depending on whether Spearmen upgraded to Pikemen directly or there's classical era intermediate unit. In the former case, this unit replaces pikemen, otherwise it replaces intermediate unit)
3. Unique Infrastructure: Basilikoi Paides (A full district actually)

For Greeks. Hoplite can stay.
 
Is Argamennon a good leader actually?
He probably existed, but there are so many noteworthy historically attested Greeks that there's no real reason to resort to a myth. I grant the idea of a Mycenean Greek civ is interesting, but Greece's real contribution to history has been philosophy and the transmission of Eastern science to the West. (That's why I love Civ6 Greece TBH; it's the first time in the franchise's history when Greece hasn't been Alexander the Civ. Though I think Alexander should have replaced Gorgo in the first place.)
 
2. UU can be Hetairoi (Heavycav, for Alexander III), and Pezhetairoi (Strong anticav unit with strong attacks when attacking, depending on whether Spearmen upgraded to Pikemen directly or there's classical era intermediate unit. In the former case, this unit replaces pikemen, otherwise it replaces intermediate unit)
Either way the Pezhetairoi should come in the Classical Era even if it's a pikemen replacement. An earlier pikemen unit would make sense for him. I kind of wish that happened for him in Civ 6.

^ Also Pezhetairoi (Classical era Pikemen with roundshields) were Alexander's main frontline units and not Hopites. (Who invented Hoplites first? Sparta or Athens?)
I don't think the true origins of hoplites are known except they seem to coincide with the rise of the polis, Greek city-states, and declined during the Peloponnesian War.
 
^ But Hoplites are Iron Age units and nothing to do with Argamenon's campaigns against Troy.
Well no considering we don't even know if Agamemnon existed or if he ever lead a campaign against Troy. Everything we know from the Iliad shouldn't be taken for granted as historically accurate, let alone real at all.
 
Well no considering we don't even know if Agamemnon existed or if he ever lead a campaign against Troy. Everything we know from the Iliad shouldn't be taken for granted as historically accurate, let alone real at all.
Well, Mykenai and Wilusa certainly fought, and Mykenai seems to have destroyed Wilusa (Troy VII). The details of the story are certainly fictional, but the war itself was real and contained historical elements those who wrote it down clearly didn't understand (such as chariot warfare). Were any of the players historically real? Possibly, but it's hard to say for certain. Quite a few names in the Iliad are attested in Linear B inscriptions, but the Iliad transparently portrays Troy as a Greek polis, not as a foreign Anatolian city-state or kingdom. At the end of the day, the Iliad is a fictional, mythical retelling of what were likely at least partially historical events--but it's hard to say for certain whether any of the players were historical or entirely fictional. Most of the Trojans have Greek names, like Hector, but on the other hand Priam and Paris are both Luwian names. Perhaps the Achilles and Hector story is an older myth that got transposed on top of the historical war against Troy, while Priam and perhaps Menelaus and/or Agamemnon are historical.
 
Well, Mykenai and Wilusa certainly fought, and Mykenai seems to have destroyed Wilusa (Troy VII). The details of the story are certainly fictional, but the war itself was real and contained historical elements those who wrote it down clearly didn't understand (such as chariot warfare). Were any of the players historically real? Possibly, but it's hard to say for certain. Quite a few names in the Iliad are attested in Linear B inscriptions, but the Iliad transparently portrays Troy as a Greek polis, not as a foreign Anatolian city-state or kingdom. At the end of the day, the Iliad is a fictional, mythical retelling of what were likely at least partially historical events--but it's hard to say for certain whether any of the players were historical or entirely fictional. Most of the Trojans have Greek names, like Hector, but on the other hand Priam and Paris are both Luwian names. Perhaps the Achilles and Hector story is an older myth that got transposed on top of the historical war against Troy, while Priam and perhaps Menelaus and/or Agamemnon are historical.
Still it's best to leave Agamemnon, and Mycenae Greece in general, out of Greece's design in Civ VII because of the historicity problems. I'll throw out Knossos too as it could be a separate city-state representing the Minoans. :)

I'd gladly take a Trojan Horse UU in a mythology spin off game though as a siege unit. :mischief:
 
Still it's best to leave Agamemnon, and Mycenae Greece in general, out of Greece's design in Civ VII because of the historicity problems. I'll throw out Knossos too as it could be a separate city-state representing the Minoans. :)
Mykenai is historical and significant (and we do have a couple historical leader names like Attarsiya, whom some scholars link to Atreus, and Enkhelyawon), but I just don't want to see a warlike Greece except under the inevitable and inescapable Alex alternate leader--and I still want to see the underlying civ fundamentally a culture civ. Also it's hard to believe Knossos hasn't been a city-state yet.
 
Mykenai is historical and significant (and we do have a couple historical leader names like Attarsiya, whom some scholars link to Atreus, and Enkhelyawon), but I just don't want to see a warlike Greece except under the inevitable and inescapable Alex alternate leader--and I still want to see the underlying civ fundamentally a culture civ.
I just fear that it would turn Greece into the Epic of Gilgamesh civ like you mentioned earlier. :p

Also it's hard to believe Knossos hasn't been a city-state yet.
Well it's not hard to believe considering keep putting it in Greece's city list. At least they are now going in the right direction and taking certain cities out of city lists, like they did with Mitla and the Aztecs. :)
 
I just fear that it would turn Greece into the Epic of Gilgamesh civ like you mentioned earlier. :p
Blood cries out for blood. :mischief:

Well it's not hard to believe considering keep putting it in Greece's city list. At least they are now going in the right direction and taking certain cities out of city lists, like they did with Mitla and the Aztecs. :)
It just seems like a logical choice given their recent trend of using city-states to represent cultures that would be difficult to represent as civs--and it would have been a less gratuitous European addition than Wolin when Poland is in the game.
 
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