Greek farmers deliver ultimatum to Tsipras

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Greek farmers deliver ultimatum to Tsipras

Passions have soared as furious shepherds and fruit, olive and cereal growers have clashed with police in Athens. In a hostile atmosphere, border checkpoints have been closed, commerce bought to a grinding halt, exports slashed and tourism stymied as the number of roadblocks has risen.

Last week, Bulgaria’s prime minister raised the stakes by angrily accusing Greeks of “deliberately tormenting” his compatriots, after farmers seized the main customs post between the two countries. With hundreds of trucks, many laden with perishable goods, stranded at the border Bulgaria estimates it is losing around €400,000 (£312,300) in trade each day. At last count 69 roadblocks had been established at tolls and junctions across Greece.

“This could have been avoided but the government never bothered to take our demands seriously,” lamented Fouzas. “[The prime minister] Alexis Tsipras said a lot of things, but then did other things. That is the problem.”

“At least 50% of farmers don’t pay their social security contributions promptly, if at all,” said the conservative MP Georgios Kyrtsos. “They are heavily funded by taxpayers and for years have been heavily subsidised by the EU. We are talking about the government increasing their contributions by around €100m a year which in the grand scheme of things is nothing.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/21/greece-farmers-step-up-battle-plans-athens

Bulgaria got mentioned ! that it is losing €400,000 per day :mischief:
What a surprise that there is rampant tax fraud in Greece even in heavily subsidized farming industry.

So instead of slashing pensions, Greece instead choose this path of maddess. (no wait that is Sparta). Not that the Farming industry needs reforms like so many things but this blockaid is sinking Greece and Bulgaria economy.
I have a feeling that another crisis is on the cards for Greece and this time the rest of the EU is going to cut Greece lose to swim or sink. (most likely sink)
 
So instead of slashing pensions,

Pensions have already been slashed. Greece spends less per retired person than does Luxembourg, Austria, Netherlands, France, Belgium, Ireland, Italy, and Germany.

Massive tax evasion occurs when people see either systematic non-enforcement of tax laws or a horrendously unfair government in which they feel they no longer have a stack. The poor, sick, elderly and unemployed have been baring the brunt of austerity while the nation's elite have escaped relatively unscathed. If a poor farmer is not paying his taxes, then what would you expect from the nation's millionaires, who have the benefit of lawyers, accountants, lobbyists, and tax havens?

IMHO, southern Europe is proof that imposing austerity during an economic downturn is economic suicide. :thumbsdown:
 
Pensions have already been slashed. Greece spends less per retired person than does Luxembourg, Austria, Netherlands, France, Belgium, Ireland, Italy, and Germany.

IMHO, southern Europe is proof that imposing austerity during an economic downturn is economic suicide. :thumbsdown:

Here some clues for all those other countries

a) Can actually afford to pay those pension
b) Actually collect taxes

As for the so called PIIG countries
Yes Germany Austerity measures and reforms only work for some countries, other countries like those in Southern Europe have been a disaster

a) Should never have been allowed into the EZ in the first place
b) Economies werent exactly great before it joined the EZ
c) Since guess who has massive saving (Germany) will be paying for economic inflation for stimulus and it would be political suicide for anyone in Germany to do this
 
As for the so called PIIG countries
Yes Germany Austerity measures and reforms only work for some countries, other countries like those in Southern Europe have been a disaster

a) Should never have been allowed into the EZ in the first place
b) Economies werent exactly great before it joined the EZ
c) Since guess who has massive saving (Germany) will be paying for economic inflation for stimulus and it would be political suicide for anyone in Germany to do this

Those work for which countrues, exactly?

The economies of the southern european countries were in fact converging with the core EU prior to the euro.
And Germany could use those massive savings to clease its own banks, before going around preaching about capital requirements to other countries where banks actually have bigger capital rations than Germany's.
Also we are still lacking the green men from outer space to buy all out exports, according to the virtuous german model.
 
Here some clues for all those other countries

a) Can actually afford to pay those pensions
On the other hand, can Greece afford NOT to pay the pensions?

The fatal flaw in austerity is that government "savings" reduces people incomes. Reducing incomes, reduces buying. Reducing buying, hurts businesses. Injured businesses generate less tax revenues and press the nation deeper into depression.

Austerity is self defeating. :thumbsdown:

b) Actually collect taxes

Agreed. :thumbsup: From the NY Times:
Greek Tax Scandal Distracts From a Collection Shortfall

By LIZ ALDERMAN and RACHEL DONADIOJAN. 5, 2013

The tax scandal that reignited in Greece over the holidays had all the makings of a grade-B drama. A former finance minister, George Papaconstantinou, was accused of scrubbing his relatives’ names from a CD containing the identities of thousands of possible Greek tax dodgers. Within hours, his chief political rival tossed him from their party.

Mr. Papaconstantinou, in turn, hinted darkly that he was the victim of a plot masking malfeasance at higher levels.

While the firestorm may have made for political theater of a sort, it has diverted attention from a much bigger problem: Greece, its foreign lenders say, has fallen woefully short of its tax collection targets and is still not moving hard enough to tackle widespread tax evasion — long tolerated, particularly among the country’s richest citizens.

Greek officials agreed to the targets as part of an international lending pact last year, but there is no penalty for missing them. In recent weeks, however, two reports by Greece’s foreign lenders have found that Athens pulled in less than half of the additional tax income that it expected last year and performed fewer than half of the expected audits.

One report said that Athens had brought in a little less than $1.3 billion in additional taxes of the $2.6 billion it had hoped to collect in 2012. Only 88 major taxpayers, including corporations, were the subject of full-scope audits, well below a target of 300, the report said, while just 467 audits of high-wealth individuals were completed, compared with a goal of 1,300.

The fragile, three-party coalition government of Prime Minister Antonis Samaras continues to vow it will crack down on corruption and tax evasion, but a blunt assessment last month by a task force of Greece’s foreign lenders said, “These changes have not yet been reflected in results in terms of improved tax inspection and collection.” Analysts say the failure to pursue tax evaders aggressively is deepening social tensions. “It’s a weak government with very difficult work to do, and this is very, very bad for the morale of the people,” said Nikos Xydakis, a political columnist for Kathimerini, a daily newspaper. “This year will be hell for the middle-class people. And the rich people are untouchable. This is very bad.”

In a separate report, the European Union and the International Monetary Fund said they were concerned that the “authorities are falling idle and that the drive to fight tax evasion by the very wealthy and the free professions is at risk of weakening.”

The report added that total unpaid taxes amounted to nearly $70 billion, about 25 percent of Greece’s gross domestic product. But only about 15 percent to 20 percent of the amount is actually collectible, either because the statute of limitations has run out or the scofflaws do not have the money.

It pressed Greece to focus on the cases most likely to produce real revenues, especially in vocations where tax evasion has become pernicious. “Doctors and lawyers are a good place to start,” it said.

Critics, especially the leftist party Syriza, which leads in opinion polls, say the government has not done enough to stop corruption because its members are tied to the country’s business elite and do not want to jeopardize their political careers.

“The problem is not simply tax evasion among the rich,” said Zoe Konstantopoulou, a member of Parliament from Syriza who serves on a panel investigating the so-called Lagarde list, a compilation of more than 2,000 Greeks with accounts in a Swiss branch of HSBC that had been sent to Mr. Papaconstantinou in 2010 by Christine Lagarde, then the finance minister of France. “The problem is tax evasion among the rich with the complicity and the aiding and abetting of those who govern.”

While Greece received a badly needed $45 billion in aid last month to help it avoid defaulting on its debts, critics say that unless Athens can more forcefully tap the billions it is owed in taxes, it will never pay off its debts, even if its moribund economy eventually starts to recover.

A dysfunctional bureaucracy weakened by budget cuts, two destabilizing rounds of elections last spring and an economy decimated by austerity have hampered tax collections further. But a thicket of regulations and a culture of resistance also fuel a shadow economy that includes an estimated 25 percent of economic activity.

One study by researchers from the University of Chicago and Virginia Tech estimated that tax evasion costs Greece about $37 billion a year, equivalent to nearly 15 percent of economic output. The study found that doctors, engineers, accountants and lawyers were “the primary tax-evading occupations.”

The reports were released shortly before Greece’s financial crimes squad accused Mr. Papaconstantinou late last month of removing the names of three of his relatives from the Lagarde list.

Those accounts belonged to a cousin of Mr. Papaconstantinou’s, her husband and the spouse of another cousin. On Wednesday, the cousin, Eleni Papaconstantinou-Sikiaridis, resigned from her post at the Greek privatization agency, saying in a letter that the money held in the HSBC Geneva account was “the legal wealth of myself and my husband.”

Mr. Papaconstantinou has vehemently denied the accusations and has said that he worked to clamp down on tax evasion as finance minister from 2009 until 2011. “I handed to the tax authorities all the files which I received from the French authorities,” he said in an e-mail. “I am not in a position to confirm that the original information received in 2010 contained the three files concerned,” he added, about his relatives.

“If the original is identical to the new one sent by the French authorities two weeks ago, this means that someone removed the names after I handed the files over,” he said.

Mr. Papaconstantinou told Parliament in November that he had asked the head of the financial crimes unit at the time to investigate only the names of the 20 biggest account holders on the list. In the e-mail interview, he said that an aide in his office pulled together the names, which he said accounted for about half of the money in the accounts.

He said he had been uneasy releasing the full 2,000 names to financial investigators for fear that they would be leaked. “Surely it is easier to safeguard an investigation of 20 people than one of 2,000 people,” he said.

Mr. Papaconstantinou testified that he then passed the entire file in June 2011 to the head of Greece’s financial crimes unit, Ioannis Diotis, who later gave it to Mr. Papaconstantinou’s successor, Evangelos Venizelos, the current leader of the Socialists and a rival of Mr. Papaconstantinou’s.

Mr. Diotis said that Mr. Venizelos did not give him orders to investigate the names on the list. Mr. Venizelos said Mr. Diotis had told him the material was unusable as it had been illegally acquired. Mr. Venizelos added that he passed the memory stick to the prime minister, Mr. Samaras, last October after Finance Minister Yannis Stournaras said the authorities could not find the original list.

On Thursday, Syriza called for an investigation into Mr. Papaconstantinou and Mr. Venizelos, and it labeled the current coalition government “the architects of corruption, and of the cover-up of corruption.”
 
Austerity is self defeating. :thumbsdown:

Not any more than living on credit is...
This is even more true when you increase your living-standards purely on someone elses' money.

The idea that austerity will automatically lead to doom is nonsense. If you have created a bloated system, the only way to get things going again is to replace the bloated system with a new system that isn't bloated. Keeping your bloated system and putting a small patch on it, in the hope that people will ignore the issue for a while, has never - ever - fixed the issue.

You can either try to fix the issue, which can hurt the people quite a bit because they are used to something different, or you can continue to live in this fantasy-bubble where things will eventually be just fine, which leads to either people being hurt for a much longer time, or catastrophy, where they are much worse off than they could ever be under austerity. Neither is better than trying to fix the problem.
 
ern european countries were in fact converging with the core EU prior to the euro.
The reasoning behind the euro is pretty hilarious, when you think about.
A fundamental mechanism of different currencies is exactly to help countries to converge, since different currencies naturally work against trade unbalances by devaluing when you have trade deficits and valuing up when you have trade surpluses, which also means to make it easer for less efficient economies to export more, while making it easier for more efficient economies to import more.
The euro meant to do away with this and increase compeition among Euopean nations. And that was supposed to accelerate the converging... :crazyeye:
It is like they never actually looked what actually happens in one-currency-zones (i.e. countries). Which is that some regions boom and others rot away.
The same thing happening in the Euro-Zone seems pretty natural to me.
But at least within an actual country it is far easer to follow the jobs.
 
It is like they never actually looked what actually happens in one-currency-zones (i.e. countries). Which is that some regions boom and others rot away.


Exactly. And indeed this is what happened in the UK. London and the southeast
boomed and overheated while the Celtic fringes and the north decayed.

One of the reasons why the independently minded Scots lost their referendum
was that they failed to understand this and first suggested they would use
the euro (when it was already discredited) and secondly stay with an overvalued
pound sterling which would have retained the existing economic constraints.

It wasn't so much that they bottled out of advocating a separate currency because
of the fear factor, but that they lacked the intellect to appreciate the advantages
of having their own currency and therefore never even made the case for it.
 
Austerity is self defeating. :thumbsdown:

You have absolutely no idea what is happening in Greece. Really. Samaras, the previous conservative Prime Minister, took an economy which was in recession and had deficit and in two years the economy for the first time began to grow in the third quarter of 2014 and a primary surplus was produces.

Austerity has nothing to do with this. The leftist opposition promised to reduce taxes (which were already low) on the farmers and actually supported farmers' demonstrations and when it became government, it increased taxes. Unlike the left, which is populist, the conservative opposition, while it supports the demands of the farmers, it is against the closing of the roads, the first time this is done by an opposition party in Greece.

They say that Greeks do not pay their taxes. I believe that right now, after the latest tax increases, that is the only way to save the country. If the leftist government does not want to cut public spending, then Greeks should avoid paying taxes in order to create a deficit so that Troika imposes cut of public spending.

The leftist government has been overly protecting the public sector, hiring it's voters in the public sector (alongside the relatives of ministers or Syriza affiliated people, like a leftist rapper whose entire family - girlfriend, brother, mother - where hired). The public sector also got an increase in it's wages and no one has been fired. Instead, 1.2 million people have been fired from the private sector. And the most frustrating of all: this overly protected and overpaid overblown public sector is corrupt and inefficient as hell. You don't know what bureaucracy means if you have not met the Greek public sector.

The left overtaxes the citizens to pay for an inefficient public sector. What needs to be done is to fire unneeded public officials, cut drastically public spending, close down unneeded public organizations and modernize the public sector so it can resemble European ones instead of being the place where politicians hire their voters' sons/daughters/uncles/whatever relatives.

Until this happens, Greeks should stop paying taxes so that the leftists understand that overtaxation cannot be accepted. If they want more money, cut public spending. Thankfully, the conservative party has a new leader, liberal centrist Kyriakos Mitsotakis, who is a reformist and liberal in economics. The party has now been soaring in polls and people are disappointed by the left and want liberalism. So soon there will be a liberal reformist government which shall actually liberalize the market, proceed with privatizations and cut public spending instead of taxing 80% of our income to pay for it's voters in the public sector.
 
The reasoning behind the euro is pretty hilarious, when you think about.
A fundamental mechanism of different currencies is exactly to help countries to converge, since different currencies naturally work against trade unbalances by devaluing when you have trade deficits and valuing up when you have trade surpluses, which also means to make it easer for less efficient economies to export more, while making it easier for more efficient economies to import more.
The euro meant to do away with this and increase compeition among Euopean nations. And that was supposed to accelerate the converging... :crazyeye:

I've never heard this as an argument for accepting the euro as currency. (Which is good, as it makes no sense.) Secondly, there's nothing obligatory about accepting the euro instead of national currency (see the UK: it has its own currency, and still profits from the EU zone).
 
I've never heard this as an argument for accepting the euro as currency. (Which is good, as it makes no sense.)
Nah, it would only be good if you never heard it because it wasn't made. As it is, it just makes things worse because you weren't even aware.
Of course that is the point of the Euro. Make everyone better off - which naturally means conversion since when there is more room towards the ceiling you will grow stronger than richer economies.
Secondly, there's nothing obligatory about accepting the euro instead of national currency (see the UK: it has its own currency, and still profits from the EU zone).
Why did you feel the need to mention this well-known dry fact?
Besides, once you have adopted the Euro, things get .. complicated. Moreover, to not have the Euro when virtually everyone else has becomes increasingly less a good idea the smaller and poorer you are, not for the sake of the Euro, but for the sake of fitting in.
 
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