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Greek UHV too easy?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Lord Apolon, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. Lord Apolon

    Lord Apolon Chieftain

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    After several games as Greece, I've become convinced that the Greek UHV is a little too easy for the human player (Obviously the AI needs help on all of them). This is why:

    1. The early wonders have a low hammer cost, and Greece starts next to Marble, and near Stone and Copper. All the wonders are double-speed for a competent human. Athens and Hattusas both have high early hammer production, too. Plus the AI hardly bothers with wonders until later on. On Monarch I have snagged every ancient wonder except the Pyramids and Stonehenge without even being in a hurry.
    2. With the GPs and the Oracle, it's really easy to pop Theology before anyone else, and then after a few years you're set for life commerce-wise. It's also not hard to pop Machinery and be building Crossbowmen while everyone else has archers, making you virtually unassailable.
    3. The large # of wonders, GP, etc., along with the science requirement and abundant coastline, results in a high-commerce Greece. The tech UHV is the hardest, but the other civs are lagging by the time Greece spawns and Rome and Persia seem to tend toward other techs.. plus you have a big time lead before they spawn.
    4. Because of high commerce and early production, the first two UHVs are not much trouble. The hardest part is balancing settlers, workers, defense, and wonders.. but Greece only needs three or four cities. The Arabs used to be the biggest threat, but now they tend to get caught up fighting Babylon for a long time.
    5. Once the first two UHVs are done, turtling until optics is easy because of high commerce. Just play nice with Rome and buy off the Arabs. I routinely discover Optics a few years before the Turks spawn, send off the caravels, and hold off the Turks until a final victory between 1070 and 1140, well before the Europeans bother sending out caravels.

    That, at least, has been my experience. The Greek UHV is the easiest of any I have tried. Unlike many of the other UHVs, their 3 goals are all geared towards a builder's dream. They do not need to diversify; focus on production early on and then commerce and GP & you get the win.

    Lastly, the third UHV (circumnavigate) is not realistic. Greece had been under foreign rule for over 1500 years at the time of Magellan's Voyage. The Greeks (Eratosthenes in particular) did calculate the world's size with surprising accuracy, but that's not the same thing. Granted, not many of the UHVs are realistic and that's okay, but I would still suggest this alternative:

    3. Control Babylon, Persia, and Egypt by 300 A.D.

    Explanation: the Hellenistic empires, though created by a Macedonian, profoundly changed the ancient world. The Great Library, or glorious Alexandria, would not have existed without these conquests, and Greek culture would not have spread throughout the East (even as Buddhism spread into the Hellenistic kingdoms). Also, it requires Greece to diversify. It's a lot easier to balance wonder production, research, and defense than it is to balance wonder production, research, and conquest.

    But it's not impossible (not nearly as hard as Rome's UHV, I think). The phalanx is strong and can rip the immortal and war chariot to shreds. Babylon is probably the hardest part (just like Alexander's actual conquests; once he conquered the Fertile Crescent, the rest of Persia began to fall apart like a house of cards). It's just a matter of logistics, and playing the balance game, fighting to stay ahead in your required techs and military at the same time.
    I chose 300 AD somewhat arbitrarily. 320 BC (the actual dates of Alex's conquest) is, I think, too early, because Persia is still becoming established. Anything after 600 is too late because of the Arabs. 300 A.D. seems a fair amount of time considering the fast pace of the early game, but is flexible.

    Advantages: More realistic, less anachronistic
    Significantly more challenging but not impossible
    Having the first 2 does not make victory a foregone conclusion
    Creates a Greek Eastern empire (if the AI does it) which would likely survive until the Turks arrive. This would leave us with about the closest we'll get to the historical Byzantine empire unless Rome becomes a lot better.
    Takes out those pesky nations which no longer existed when the Arabs came along (yes, Persia did, but that was a different Persian empire)

    Disadvantages: AI probably can't do it. Maybe these wars could be encouraged.
    AI would get ripped apart even more by Turks and Arabs
    Greece will finish much earlier (but then, the other ancient civs, Babylon, Egypt, Carthago, and sort of Rome, all have early UHVs)

    Well.. that's my idea. Thoughts? Also, any tips on how to format these posts to look better would be appreciated. ;)
     
  2. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 Chieftain

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    Sounds historical. But for the full points, shouldn't Babylonia be included? Though they never fought them, Persia never seems to be the super power in Mesopotamia as it should be.

    However, I hardly believe anyone could pull off those conquests while managing a wonder/scientific empire.
     
  3. Mercenary82

    Mercenary82 Chieftain

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    The Greek UHV is so easy that I managed to get it by accident, just by playing normally. Some type of conquest goal would be better than being the first to circumnavigate, which is so easy it really doesn't need to be a goal for any civ.
     
  4. HoriujiMan

    HoriujiMan Chieftain

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    I have had the same experience re Greece being the easiest of the UHVs. I like the ideas about a conquest goal similar as an "Alexander requirement."

    Alternatively, to represent the spread of Greek culture through the Middle East, you could have a goal tied to building a certain number of temples or theatres in captured or flipped cities, e.g. build an aggregate of 10 temples and theatres by a certain date (even if you lose control of the city later).
     
  5. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    I agree - I got the Greek UHV with just 2 cities!

    I am guessing that these UHV's will all be dealt with en masse at a later date. Most are currently either too easy or impossible! :)

    Hellenistic expansion could provide a good challenge historically but 300 AD is way too late, it would definitely have a b.c. requirement in it, even if Greece had to start a few turns earlier, or have some other bonus to kick start them.
     
  6. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    And in this mod they can check if their calculations was OK. I don't like to always be warmonger. Let the Greece be peaceful! (I don't think that Greek UHV is much easier than Egyptian or Babylonian one).

    [EDIT]: Maybe Greece should have to build The Great Library too? Library in Pergamonum tried to be bigger than Egyptian!
     
  7. Surtur

    Surtur Chieftain

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    Greece UHV should definately contain the Alexander Conquest.
     
  8. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    Alexnader conquest was too fas for this game and was made by Macedonia- not Greece (Alexander thought that he is Greek but Greek thoughts that Macedonians are barbarians).
     
  9. CyberChrist

    CyberChrist You caught my attention

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    Alexander (the Macedonian) is nevertheless the leader of the Greek civ in cIV (and RFC) - so not having HIS conquests as part of the Greek UHV is a little odd. Furthermore, then the current Circumnavigation goal is also a bad fit for Greece ... imho.
     
  10. waylander

    waylander Chieftain

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    I agree that the Greek UHV is way too easy. Get rid of the circumnavigate - it has nothing to do with Greek culture or history. Have them establish or conquer a city in India by a certain date. They can either fight their way through to India or get Open Borders or sail a galley around Africa. This somewhat duplicates Alexanders march but gives you a warmonger vs peaceful option.
     
  11. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    As I once explained, circumnavigation has somthing to do with Greece.
    They thought of a flat, round world, and even Alexander thought that he could back home from India passing by the external ocean and the south mouth of the Nile.
    Try the Greek World mod to see what I mean (Herodotus's map)
     
  12. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    But isn't a "Alexander's conquests mission" more accurate?

    Ps. I agree that the UHV are too easy
     
  13. Magma

    Magma Chieftain

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    If one consider Alexander a greek then yes, if not, no.
     
  14. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 Chieftain

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    It doesn't matter if he's Greek or not, he's the dang leaderhead. I just hope the Greek's UHV doesn't turn into a clone of Rome's.
     
  15. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    @Magma
    Oh my oh my, he's the leader of Greece :D
     
  16. Magma

    Magma Chieftain

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    It doesn't matter? Well if the conquest of the Old World were done be Macedonia, not Greece, so yes then it would indeed matter. By that, then we would play 2/3 Greek and 1/3 Macedonians?
     
  17. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    I'm caring more of variety. I didn't want to turn UHVs into Risk! with just "control territory X" or "destroy the blue team" goals.
     
  18. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 Chieftain

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    I said it doesnt matter since the leaderhead is Alexander!
    Let me quote it once:
    Heck, why not again?:
    Last time:
    I'm tired of repeating myself. If you're so heavy-hearted for having Greece seperated from Macedonia, why not petition to remove Alexander, even though he spread the Hellenistic culture to a farther extent than the Greeks could have done by themselves.
    Thank goodness. However, if you're looking for variety, then you should scrap the 'Circumnavigate the World' condition. How many other civilizations have to do this as well?
     
  19. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    So maybe he should be changed to Pericles? :D :p
     
  20. Magma

    Magma Chieftain

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    It still does matter, it was Macedonia who did it, not Greece.
    Then stop doing it, I perfectly understood what you meant the first time; there's no need to spam the forum.
    Do that if you wish; I got more important things to do.

    There's alot more who has "control that" goals.
     

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