Greenland and Iceland

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Lord Apolon, Dec 27, 2006.

  1. Lord Apolon

    Lord Apolon Warlord

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    I haven't seen either of these issues addressed, so perhaps we can do something about them (assuming they aren't intentional). First, Greenland in the current map is a worthless wasteland. Iceland is better, but still hardly worth settling. However, now that the Vikings are a civilization, this becomes something of a problem.

    Iceland was an extremely important location in Norse history. Much surviving Norse literature comes from Iceland, including the famous sagas. Their governmental system, the Althing, was nearly unique in its time. The island has been continuously inhabited since around 874. Currently, according to Wikipedia, the island has the world's fifth most productive economy per capita.

    But on this map, Iceland can never be very productive. Considering its importance, I would like to suggest that the island's geography be improved. I am no map-maker, so someone with an eye for balance will probably make better suggestions, but these are the specific changes that I have tried in the WB with good results (in order of decreasing significance)


    1. Add at least one fish resource right around the island, maybe two. The fishing industry accounts for 40% of the island's export earnings in the modern day.
    2. Change one or both of the mountains to hills, preferably grassland (Iceland is considered a temperate climate, believe it or not)
    3. Add aluminum to.. somewhere. Aluminum is another important export for Iceland.
    4. Sheep (may be overkill on the food resources. Balance department?).
    5. Whales.

    Also, because the island was settled so early, I feel that the ocean barrier between Iceland and England should be changed to coast. To prevent early American colonization, the strait between Greenland and Baffin island should probably be changed to ocean. I have tested these changes in the WB and the result has been that the island is eventually settled and becomes.. not great, but decent. However, those settlers are invariably the English (upsetting their other colonisation efforts as well). Thus, it would work better if the Vikings could make Iceland a priority area.. I don't know how that works in terms of the code, but it works for Spain and France, so if it could be done for the Vikings too, it would ensure that they get the island that has been a crown jewel for so long.



    Onto the second, related topic: Greenland

    Greenland was settled by the Norse in 985. This island, in the mod, is completely worthless. Instead, it should only be mostly worthless. The island at one time supported a Norse colony of about 6000, spread across two cities, one in the south and one on the west coast. (
    The settlements collapsed around 1400.
    Unlike the Iceland colony, the Greenland settlements had comparatively small significance, but nevertheless they are well-known, and had more resources than the current map gives them. Likewise, they were an important stepping-stone to the even more shortlived Viking settlement of Vinland (Newfoundland) in the New World.

    Hence I make the following geographic suggestions. Balance concerns are welcome.

    Cut out the southern ice so boats can reach the western and more habitable coast. As mentioned above, the Baffin strait should be made ocean to prevent early discovery of America.

    The geographic details are harder, especially since the island is much less habitable now than 1000 years ago. In general I would suggest that the western coast should be made grassland and the southern interior be made tundra/tundra hills. The northern part, and the eastern coast, should remain glacier.

    Possible resource choices:
    1) Fish (definitely) or crabs (shrimp are the majority of the modern export economy)
    2) Sheep or cows (the Vikings brought them over. Granted, they destroyed the ecology, according to Jared Diamond's Collapse. Nevertheless they did bring them)
    3. This one sounds weird, but ivory, in the ice a few tiles north of the highest grassland. Walrus Ivory became Greenland's major export (according to Collapse) because it was available nowhere else in the West once the Crusades began and trade to the East became.. dangerous. Norse traders took great risks to get Greenland ivory from the walrus homelands north of West Settlement. But then again the Vikings could get war elephants.. so take that into consideration.
    4. Maybe some rivers, to represent the fjords? Probably not as it would allow immigration.

    Again, make it a colonize area for Scandinavia so England doesn't snag it all the time.


    Of these two changes, the more important and beneficial would be the Iceland change, which was a major settlement and nowadays is an economic powerhouse. It would also improve the Vikings, who at least in my games have had a slow start. Plus it would be more historically accurate.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Mercenary82

    Mercenary82 King

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    Greenland doesn't have enough population, or have a high enough GDP for them to have cities that should be seen on the map.
     
  3. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    I fully agree with your ideas about Iceland - it would be a perfect stepping stone for the Vikings in their UHV to found the first city in the Americas, and follow historical reality. I think whales should play an important part in the additional resources and fish. I don't think that there needs to be a coastal passage there, the Vikings just need to be told to settle it asap.

    For Greenland though, I don't think that early settlements there were very successful and for this reason, I don't feel a need for a change there. The Vikings need to move on in and claim Vinland.
     
  4. Zetetic Apparat

    Zetetic Apparat Warlord

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    If Greenland is made more attractive then I suggest we solve the Ivory problem by replacing the Beserker with the War Walrus (same differences but against War Elephant). Realistic and balanced.
     
  5. Crayton

    Crayton King

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    The changes to Iceland would be nice.

    The War-Walrus, however, would be un-neccesary. If we include that we also have to give Babylon the Hang-glider unit, and no one would have time to draw up all of these new graphics.
     
  6. NeoT

    NeoT Nobody

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    I agree whit you whit all your ideas on iceland, except for one. Transforming the ocean barrier between the british islands and Iceland into coast would make that the colonization of america starts too soon. Maybe, the solution to this will come whit the implementation of second UUs, the vikings could have a longboat that could travel in ocean but cant end turn in it or it will sink (like civ3 galleys), that would fix the problem and would be more realistic.
     
  7. Hitti-Litti

    Hitti-Litti Deity

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    About 2nd UUs, Vikings could have a ship that can travel in rivers. That eould be either neat and realistic.
     
  8. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 King

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    Uh, no second UU. Just command the AI to settle Iceland as soon as possible.
     
  9. Hitti-Litti

    Hitti-Litti Deity

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    Why not second UU?

    All nations would have 2, not only Vikings.
     
  10. Stellan_87

    Stellan_87 Chieftain

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    Well Greenland should have acess to whales, i know there was an important whale-trade to make oil.
     
  11. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 King

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    Because your giving a complicated solution for a simple problem. Do you realize that adding a second UU for each cvilization would require hours to create with graphics and balancing. Just put settling Iceland the highest priority for the Viking AI.

    Hurray for the 200th post.
     
  12. NeoT

    NeoT Nobody

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    Rhye will implement second UUS, they are in his plans (at least now).
     
  13. thenooblet22

    thenooblet22 King

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    If you don't mind me asking, but when and where did he state this? I honestly just want to know.
     
  14. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    Great someone mentioned this. I'm familiar with this topic because I'm Icelandic.

    But what I've done in my games (Rhye's and just world maps) is to make a coast where the Faroe Islands are today so you could reach Iceland. I've taken away the deers in the west, because deers didn't come to Iceland until around 1750, and replace them with sheep. I also get rid of the mountains and change the western one into grassland (no hills) and the eastern one into ice/hills (Vatnajokull, Europe's largest glacier)

    And yes, I've put aluminum into the southwestern part of the island where Reykjavík is. I don't think incence is the right thing (but it's the closest thing to Iceland's 2nd greatest natural resource, geothermal heat..but Reykjavík is partly named after incence [Reykjavík=smokey creek - Reykelsi=incence]). I'm still not sure about if it should be there...

    Then I change all the tundra/hills into grassland/hills except on the plot north of Reykjavík, but I change that one into grassland (no hills)

    I've put hills where the former deer was and the sheep is now. The last thing I do is that I add a fish resource southwest of Iceland, only reachable from Reykjavík, so the Vikings do settle there, not somewhere else.

    And about Greenland. I've always just put one fur resource near Brattahlíð (Hvarf, southest part of greenland) because the Inuits lived on hunting and sold masses of furs to the Norse for Scandinavian (mostly Icelandic) milk products (cattle). If that's not a reason enough for the Vikings to settle there I place a fish resource southwest of Greenland, only reachable from Brattahlíð.

    And then about Greenland's second settlement, Vestribyggð (Godthåb, Nuuk). I've placed one whale resource and one fish resource in the sea there where both resources can only be got to by building a settlement in modern day Nuuk.

    That's incorrect. A size 1 settlement in Civ IV holds 10,000 people, right? And Greenland has 60,000 inhabitants.
     
  15. Hitti-Litti

    Hitti-Litti Deity

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    In the to-do list in the Welcome Here-thread.
     
  16. Mercenary82

    Mercenary82 King

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    City populations are not really scaled to fit the world map properly, otherwise Earth is disastrously underpopulated in RFC.
     
  17. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I agree with the improvement of iceland.
     
  18. Magma

    Magma Prince

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    I agree with the improvement of Iceland and Greenland(yet Greenland should be a "jumping spot" to Vinland only, hence not very good).
     
  19. McA123

    McA123 Prince

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    Maybe for Greenland, one or 2 coastal tiles that are currently ice could be made tundra so that cities are buildable, just not very useful.
     
  20. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

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    And then we encourage the AI to build useless cities on those two spots of Tundra? Why should we simulate this?
     

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