Grenadiers:Are there any advantages?

Playing on Immortal,are there any advantages to going the tech path to reach grenadiers?
Is it Military-Science or what-ever tech is a dead end tech.I suppose one can choose between teching rifles or grenadiers? If im not mistaken they are equal in strength?

Usually at that stage in the game as soon as i research Gunpowder,i just whip muskets and trebs and take as much land as possible.Then i research rifling e.t.c.

 

Rifles are STR 14, Grens are STR 12, with a bonus vs. Rifles.

Grenadiers are closer on the tech path to Cannon (both spring from Chemistry), so if you go Cannon and then want a supporting unit for your Cannon. Back in Vanilla, when Grens were unlocked at Chemistry, I did this quite a bit. Now I usually just do Cannon+whatever medieval era troops I have lying around, and get Mil Tradition as a fill-in trade. Cannon+anything is pretty much the optimal solution.

But if you really need a stronger unit right away, or if you're locked in a Frigate war, I guess it's worth it.

yrs--
--Ben

 

Ya it's pretty much a matter of whether or not you're going for the other things that come from the chemistry path, namely cannons. They're also a little earlier then rifles.

 

They were.

(Grenadiers used to kick ass, but were brought in line with later patches/expansions. Now I rarely bother: if I have cannons, I don't need anything else; otherwise I build Riflemen)

 

They're certainly not worth beelining just for themselves, but they come with the strongest non-oil-based-navalunit and you can construct Military Academies with Mil. Sci., so that's not too bad. If you're planning an early naval invasion and a war that will last a while and want a unit to pair up with your cannons, Mil. Science and Grenadiers are worth a look. But be aware that you'll get flanked to death when the enemy has Cuirassiers.

 

You can bulb chemistry, that's good. Mil science isn't a very interesting tech though. Don't usually get enough GGs for the academies to have much of an impact, grenadiers aren't much better with cannon than pike/xbow/knight, whereas rifles are, and you can draft them.

ps. ironclad are non oil and 12 STR.

 

I never go for MS. I might trade for it at some point - usually put a vassal on the case, but rarely use Grens. Grens are not a bad unit, but MS is just off the beaten path for me.

I prefer mounted warfare, OP , especially on higher levels. It is just far superior than the snail route. Cannons are strong though if you don't have horses - just slow. Muskets are not a good unit on IMM+, except as a stop-gap support troop with cannons if you beeline Steel. Oromos are strong though at least for one battle and then upgrading.

 

Yeah only as a matter of timing. If I've had a lot of wars up to that point I might have a handful of GG macemen. While you're upgrading/building your wave a cannons it can be a good tech to research so you can upgrade your GGs and a few of your best other maceman to build the SOD to go deep into enemy territory. But as stated, with enough cannons it really doesn't matter what your support troops are. A lot of my wars are conveniently timed to start the second turn after I get MS.

 

you are right muskets on IMM+ is not a unit that will conquer every army in its path.But on the other hand they are very effective when the als still have knights and maces e.t.c. in other words get gunpowder before the als make sure at that point to have at least 12 trebs (only to reduce city defences,not for actual combat) and if time allows build muskets,if not whip them.
once the musket treb army is assembled pick the weakest neighbour,declare and whip all the cities for what theyre worth.take as much land and the best cities possible and then from there build for a major war,what ever you like rifles or infantry,tanks e.t.c.
any-way thats the way i do it because i prefer to get a few cities and land before the als upgrade their armies and it is not always garunteed in every game that cannons or rifles can get the wins that one would like.at times the al already has infantry

 

If you Lib Steel you can tech MS and have a strong fighting force, even against Riffles. It's a lot faster so you will usually be able to take out 2-3 people before they get Riffling, and by then you will have a massive army with tons of promotions.

 

IF you are going for Steel, they are a very nice follow-up. They are an excellent general-purpose stack defender until your opponents get Rifling.

IF you are going for Railroad before Assembly Line (or even before Rifling), having Grenadiers allows some otherwise illegal promotions to be stacked on your Machine Guns. If you're Protective, they allow cheap CG3 Machine Guns, which are very resistant to Riflemen.

They allow you the option of delaying the entire Feudalism - Guilds - Banking path.


IMHO the major disadvantage vs. Riflemen: you can't Draft them.

 

Pinch MGs are great as well, and work open-field. I sometimes use a GG on a grenadier just to make a MG with Pinch and as much Combat as I can pile on it.

 

muskets+cannons warfare can be done few centuries sooner then rifles+cannons though.

You have to get guilds, banks from trades with AI's (which costs you some tech lead) and then RP+Rifling which are both expensive techs.

Otoh if you Lib->steel you have already access to muskets and if you're really really smart you can have small stack of trebuchets to upgrade. Mix in some pikes and you're good to go and wipe 2 neighbors (or capitulate) before teching RP+rifles.

agree with the assumption that siege warfare is more boring then mounted warfare ;-).

As for grenadiers... honestly it's unit that really puzzles me, but I saw them used in some advanced start (not sure with the right era now...) as great attack unit. Problem here is that they are dead end technology with high cost and mounted counters them heavily (even cuirassiers which are the same str).

 

They die horribly to cavalry if defending on flats and can't cover cannons effectively, but they are far less gimped attacking opposing rifles than any other unit in the era.

In later-era starts their ability to completely own rifles (with walls being obsoleted so cata can bombard easily) they can actually shine.