grenadiers

nadeem

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Sep 6, 2007
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does anyone use them? i rarely ever build them in games at all.
in original civ 4 i used them all the time when they came with chemistry. but now i never build them at all because military science is never a priority. i'd probably prefer to have them back at chemistry.
any thoughts?
 

AfterShafter

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You can get a grenadier/cannon army in about the same time you can get a riflemen/treb army... If you need hard hitting, solid defense units faster, then that combo works well. What's more, it counters enemy rifles...

Short answer - yes I do, sometimes, since grenadiers are very close to cannons.
 

PhroX

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You can get a grenadier/cannon army in about the same time you can get a riflemen/treb army... If you need hard hitting, solid defense units faster, then that combo works well. What's more, it counters enemy rifles...

Short answer - yes I do, sometimes, since grenadiers are very close to cannons.

Yeah, it depends on which way you're going down the tech tree. Often, if you're planning Renaissance warfare, it's quicker to go for cannons than rifles, and once you've got cannons, Grens are only a tech or two away, compared to 4-5 for rifles, so you may as well go for them instead. Not much weaker than rifles against earlier units, and way better vs rifles. Weaker vs mounted units of course.
 

digitCruncher

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Depends. Am I behind in tech?

If so, I better get Rifles before the enemy gets cuirassers, or (gulp) Calvary.

If not, I will go for Cannon + Grenadiers, as they allow me to choose better economic techs as well, down the line. Plus, ship of lines are great if I want a small, strong, navy.
 

LegionSteve

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Depends on the situation but yes, sometimes. If I am winning the liberalism race easy enough to get gunpowder before liberalism, then I can get chemistry as the free tech, research steel for cannons, then it makes sense to get grenadiers as they are only one tech away. Plus going that route along the bottom of the tree, if you have astronomy or can trade it off someone then you can confound the AIs with privateers while you are building your cannon and grenadier army.
 

UncleJJ

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Do I use grenadiers? On water maps, all the time. :)

Basically you get the choice of either first researching the group of techs at the bottom of the tech tree, giving cannons and grenadiers or the techs at the top of the tree, giving rifles and cavalry. On a map with mostly land the top techs are good as they help your cottages and you can draft out a load of rifles. On a water map you'll need galleons, frigates and drydocks to get very far so then it makes perfect sense to take the bottom techs first and then pick up the top ones later. Grenadiers go great with cannons, galleons and frigates.
 

Rusty Edge

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Do I use grenadiers? On water maps, all the time. :)

Basically you get the choice of either first researching the group of techs at the bottom of the tech tree, giving cannons and grenadiers or the techs at the top of the tree, giving rifles and cavalry. On a map with mostly land the top techs are good as they help your cottages and you can draft out a load of rifles. On a water map you'll need galleons, frigates and drydocks to get very far so then it makes perfect sense to take the bottom techs first and then pick up the top ones later. Grenadiers go great with cannons, galleons and frigates.
:agree:

Explains it pretty well. Never underestimate the power of Berserkers upgraded to "Grenadier marines":viking::banana:
 

Willem

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It struck me as odd that it was possible to build Cavalry and Riflemen without ever having built a single Grenadier. Historically they were around before the others. So I just altered my game and made Military Science a requirement for both Cavalry and Riflemen, in addition to the techs they already needed.
 

phungus420

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In the default game, Military Science is almost always a waste of beakers (much like Divine Right). It has it's uses at times, but it nearly always should be skipped.

Of course, modding the game is a viable option. I, like many others recommend the Wolfshanze mod if you want a more balanced and smooth unit progression, while retaining as much of the original BtS gameplay as possible. The mod smooths out the unit progression by making some minor tweaks, adds in steamship navies (so you don't jump from 16th century frigates to WWII destroyers), and adds in more ethnically diverse unit art.
 

TheMeInTeam

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MS opens up the useful academies with GGs, and ships of the line! Useful on water maps for SURE.

But, I don't like grenadiers themselves on regular maps, because both cuirassers (which come sooner) and especially cavalry ruin your day, and with gren/cannon cavalry are a horrible, horrible thing to run into. If you're going gren/cannon, hit before they get that, although even cuirassers are problematic.
 

MkLh

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Never. Military Science is such a dead end tech. Cannons are themselves strong enough against anything before rifling. Grenadiers counter Rifles, but if the enemy has Rifles it almost always has or will soon get Cavalry too. Cavalry eat Cannons&Grenadiers for breakfast anyway.
 

AfterShafter

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Never. Military Science is such a dead end tech. Cannons are themselves strong enough against anything before rifling. Grenadiers counter Rifles, but if the enemy has Rifles it almost always has or will soon get Cavalry too. Cavalry eat Cannons&Grenadiers for breakfast anyway.

Heh, grenadiers are better at the time than the alternatives.

If I'm sitting there, just got cannons, and I want to go to war... I can either run around with knights/macemen/pikemen/musketmen for however many techs it takes me to get to rifles and still be weak against the cavalry you're worried about the opponent having, or I can get grenadiers, have a much stronger general purpose unit, something really offensively powerful to upgrade my CR3 maces into, and for just one tech - a tech that has other perks, I might add. If you're going cannons before rifles, it seems darned near silly to me to not get grenadiers along the way.

What's more, if you're a protective civ, and I am a very significant portion of the time, those new guys are getting very spiffy upgrades that maces and all that don't get.

I find cannons to be the real all-star attacking units for that period - they eat contemporary defenders for breakfast. Sometimes, I want cannons more than rifles/cavalry - and I aim for rifles/cavalry, I've got a bit of a haul before getting cannons. So, sometimes it makes sense to go for cannons first, and if I'm in the vicinity, grenadiers are a step up from what I have to work with if I get cannons, ignore grenadiers, and head straight for rifling...

In short? Sure, they have trouble with cavalry, but so does everything else you'd be using at the time, and at least they are great stack defenders and very solid attackers.
 

digitCruncher

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Rifles come before (or immediately with) calvalry, but rifles are also FAR superior to Calvaly, so your comment that "Sure, they have trouble with cavalry, but so does everything else you'd be using at the time ..." is incorrect.

14 strength + 50% vs. Mounted, vs. 15 strength is no contest...

Rifles are at LEAST 50% stronger than grenadiers vs. calvalry, probably more (I don't know about base strength of calvalry, rifles and grenadiers).

In short, rifles have no trouble fighting cavalry. Defending against grenadiers, however... THAT is a different story...
 

AfterShafter

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Rifles come before (or immediately with) calvalry, but rifles are also FAR superior to Calvaly, so your comment that "Sure, they have trouble with cavalry, but so does everything else you'd be using at the time ..." is incorrect.

14 strength + 50% vs. Mounted, vs. 15 strength is no contest...

Rifles are at LEAST 50% stronger than grenadiers vs. calvalry, probably more (I don't know about base strength of calvalry, rifles and grenadiers).

In short, rifles have no trouble fighting cavalry. Defending against grenadiers, however... THAT is a different story...

My entire premise was, if you're aiming for cannons first, you don't have rifles, so my statement is entirely true. At the time you get cannons when they are your priority, every other unit you have has trouble against cavalry. Rifles just don't magically fall into your lap upon getting cannons - you need to hit up a few big techs along the way.

As for the math, thanks, I know how much better rifles are against cavalry... But again, if you bee-line cannons, you don't have rifles, nor will you until you've chewed through a few pretty significant techs, so grenadiers make a lot of sense being one tech away.

If you *always* get rifles first, grenadiers are at best something you build one or two of - if you even get the tech - to deal with wandering rifles or something, or to defend against attacking grenadiers. But you don't always get rifles first, so sometimes, they're actually well worth the one tech.
 

Willem

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Rifles are at LEAST 50% stronger than grenadiers vs. calvalry, probably more (I don't know about base strength of calvalry, rifles and grenadiers).

Riflemen: 14 + 50% vs Cavalry
Cavalry: 15
Grenadiers: 12 + 50% vs Riflemen

So a Rifleman is much more than 50% more powerful against Cavalry than Grenadiers.
 

Joshua368

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I've used Grenadiers multiple times. The main unit for an early renassiance ambush against still-medieval muskets/longbows in Steel, let's you mow through them. Grenadiers then give you a quick thing to turn all those city raider maces into during the advance.

Of course if my opponent has rifling I'll want to make sure I have it too, but it can take a while for the AI to reach that.
 

Blind Muse

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digitCruncher - yes you get Rifles before you get Cavalry, but that doesn't mean that you get Rifles before your enemy gets Cavalry. :eek:
 

AfterShafter

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One other thing... I'm making my assault on Deity at this point, and one thing is quite obvious to me after a few dozen tries - I'm never going to be the first to rifling. This being the case, if I want to wage war around that point, I can either use old units (which I do often), go for rifling, or go for cannons. If I go for rifling, I get riflemen and... They're a great defensive unit, very solid for controlling the field, but if the enemy has rifling, Trebs just don't have the kind of oomph I want to wage a semi-economical war against a rifle using enemy. Cannons, on the other hand, really rock the boat. When I get those cannons, well, I obviously can't have rifles without a good long wait, so I grab grenadiers and start giving the enemy rifles hell. I don't find myself getting swarmed with cavalry by most civs, and those grenadiers beat knights handily on the field, so, I'm finding the cannon/grenadier combo to very effective. Sure, I wish it was cannons/rifles, but those rifles don't come easy.

I more often these days find myself leaving rifling off because of the tangible earlier gains I can make with cannons over trebs. Grenadiers just fit well into that whole schema. Of course, if you're in a position where you're ahead for tech, rifles make more sense... But if you're ahead for tech, this debate is kind of pointless, since you obviously have the luxury time and resources to make things which may not be the most immediately economical work.
 

KaytieKat

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Jul 29, 2007
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Hi

I like mil sci for the academies and SoL's but as far as units go I like rifles and curiassors/cav. Also going down rifle tree mean haeding toward AL which mean factories and Infantry which I like LOTS.

So I will build gren sometimes, they can be handy for me mostly cuz earlier in the game I usually get machinery waaay before feudilaism so by mid game a BIG chunk of my garison forces are crossbows and crossbows upgrade to grens and longbows dont, they just upgrade to rifles so if I am in a desperate sitch and need to upgrade my garrisons fast then thatcan be handy.

But usualy I would rather have rifles even if the AI gets mil sci by time I get rifles I still not TOO worried. Rem that 50% bonus gren get is for attacking rifles only -- it dont do beans if they have to defend against rifles so that bonus not going to be hurting your rifles much if you stay on the offense :)

Kaytie
 

Sic Transit Zeb

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Feb 21, 2009
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In the default game, Military Science is almost always a waste of beakers (much like Divine Right). It has it's uses at times, but it nearly always should be skipped.

Of course, modding the game is a viable option. I, like many others recommend the Wolfshanze mod if you want a more balanced and smooth unit progression, while retaining as much of the original BtS gameplay as possible. The mod smooths out the unit progression by making some minor tweaks, adds in steamship navies (so you don't jump from 16th century frigates to WWII destroyers), and adds in more ethnically diverse unit art.

I love Divine Right for the Spiral Minaret. Such an econ boost.
 
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