Gross isolation games

[Tecumseh1]

So I'm finally started to get some consistency on immortal but still suck at isolation or even semi isolation games. For example my current game as Zara. My continent/island has 1 calendar resource, no gold/gems/silver/ivory, no stone/marble. Hardly any riverside cottages. I just find this kind of game really slow. I finally met the others around 1000 AD and got astronomy by 1280AD (second person to get it). Early game I went for monarchy which was a mistake I think. Then I tried for CoL to get a religion and failed again. Next thought I could bulb philosophy for a religion but lost race by 2 turns. Later realized it would be easier to go for drama and build cheap theaters. This is what I did after monarchy and before optics and running culture slider at 10% until astronomy. It's a very sad state of affairs although I do have 9 cities and 3-4 scientists which I can't use for anything except golden age. Things are finally opening up happiness wise and I've met everyone now. But I'm way way behind in tech. How do you play early game in these isolated starts with extreme happiness cap and crappy traits (creative/organized here)?

Start save if anyone is interested.

 

[chinemol]

rolled 2 games today. both semi iso. one with shaka, the next with monty. barring some unnecesary detours to pick up happiness, went the correct tech path (going military) or at least is what I thought. still lost both. someone better could have won, it happens.

my guess in a zara iso game (without watching the save):
let culture fogbust with creative. settle 5 cities. when food available, favor scientists, not cottages. I tend to go monarchy also, but it might be a mistake. just follow the bulb path for optics. if lacking food, organized lets you whip lighthouses and work a barren coast.

 

[AcaMetis]

How do you play early game in these isolated starts with extreme happiness cap and crappy traits (creative/organized here)?

Broadly speaking, keep your empire small until you're ready to bulb Astronomy in the next couple of turns. Especially on high difficulties the increase in overall empire maintenance slows down your teching in the short term too much, and long term investments don't pay off if you never get there.

Also be extremely careful about tech choices. Every extra tech you research will delay your Astronomy date, which is your tech that lets you grow your empire (Mercantilism is a concern on higher difficulties since the AIs will get there much sooner than you'll reach Astronomy, but on higher difficulties AIs are able to pay much more gold for traded techs/resources, so that balances out). Techs like Monarchy, Code of Laws, Literature, etc. can and should be skipped unless absolutely critical to dragging your empire to a respectable Astronomy date, and there are situations where they can be. Even than try to restrict yourself to only one major detour, the earlier you get Astronomy and meet the other AIs the better a position you'll be in.

 

[sampsa]

Unfortunately the save is BAT. Can someone make a worldbuilder-save?

 

[sampsa]

I think monarchy can be good in isolation, if you can build many river cottages. If you have no river and no it's a tough game for sure. Even with weak land you should be able to get astro 800AD or so though, then expand beyond 6 cities (perhaps even claim some islands).

Also be extremely careful about tech choices.

This. It's also the reason why I like isolation games a lot. They really punish you for poor strategic choices.

 

[tlhingan]

Unfortunately the save is BAT. Can someone make a worldbuilder-save?

I hope this works:

 

[sampsa]

I hope this works:

works, ty

 

[antimony]

T36 and general comments

Spoiler :

Numbers on the map are the settling order I'm thinking of.

Settled in place because of river to the north (more cottages) and to get production (mines/forests) in fish city 2.

I think Monarchy is the play here. That's the only way to grow your cities, and you need fewer, economically stronger cities for fast Optics. I would completely avoid CoL as there is no synergy with specialists (not PHI, no stone for Pyramids); note that CoL and Philo to get those religions is an option if you're going for iso culture victory, but you don't have the leader traits or marble to really boost such a plan.

What Zara does have is ORG for cheap lighthouses and CRE for fast border pops (flexible city placement + fogbusting) and cheap libraries. This is useful as we won't need to whip these buildings (given our limited happiness). Also we can ignore Agriculture entirely here, which is good given his starting techs.

Here I went for AH-Wheel-Fishing-Pottery, Sailing-Masonry is next for GLH in city 2 (more of an investment for post-Astro economy, and I think it's safe to build around T70 on immortal (but I might be wrong here). Worker improved pigs, then 2 mines, then road to city 2, and next cottaging. Those mines will help build workboat and lighthouse in city 2, helping me delay BW after Masonry. I probably show go BW after that to accelerate great lighthouse with chops, then the question is whether to get writing first or straight to monarchy.

First settler delayed a bit so I could have 4 warriors, as I like doubling them when advancing to fogbust the north and south side.

 

[sampsa]

T36

Spoiler :

I risked settling 1S, though there likely is something in the N tiles that I miss. Losing a wet corn for 20T would hurt of course, but +1 for the whole game is a lot. Then again, 2W is likely a food res (yay it was pigs!). Went for the N spot first because it's connected, 3rd to grab pig+fps. Not sure if I can make a play for GLH (maybe not hopeless in the N city?), but hoping earlier expansion will be worth it. Mids would be so good here and it's a tempting shot even without stone.

 

[Tecumseh1]

rolled 2 games today. both semi iso. one with shaka, the next with monty. barring some unnecesary detours to pick up happiness, went the correct tech path (going military) or at least is what I thought. still lost both. someone better could have won, it happens.

my guess in a zara iso game (without watching the save):
let culture fogbust with creative. settle 5 cities. when food available, favor scientists, not cottages. I tend to go monarchy also, but it might be a mistake. just follow the bulb path for optics. if lacking food, organized lets you whip lighthouses and work a barren coast.

Ahh those detours for happiness that I also struggle with. Also it's tricky to bulb on the way to optics especially since I went fishing pretty early.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Broadly speaking, keep your empire small until you're ready to bulb Astronomy in the next couple of turns. Especially on high difficulties the increase in overall empire maintenance slows down your teching in the short term too much, and long term investments don't pay off if you never get there.

Also be extremely careful about tech choices. Every extra tech you research will delay your Astronomy date, which is your tech that lets you grow your empire (Mercantilism is a concern on higher difficulties since the AIs will get there much sooner than you'll reach Astronomy, but on higher difficulties AIs are able to pay much more gold for traded techs/resources, so that balances out). Techs like Monarchy, Code of Laws, Literature, etc. can and should be skipped unless absolutely critical to dragging your empire to a respectable Astronomy date, and there are situations where they can be. Even than try to restrict yourself to only one major detour, the earlier you get Astronomy and meet the other AIs the better a position you'll be in.

Thanks. Think I didn't over expand and maintenance didn't really hurt me. Courthouses helped when i ran out of things to build and before I got to alpha/currency. But definitely my tech detours definitely hurt. I couldn't think of a reasonable way to get to optics faster without growing and bulbing is tricky here. After monarchy I know I should have beelined optics but also regretted getting monarchy since it barely helps here. Do you spam worries and struggle to optics with happy cap of 5-6 in most cities?

 

[Tecumseh1]

T36 and general comments

Spoiler :

Numbers on the map are the settling order I'm thinking of.

Settled in place because of river to the north (more cottages) and to get production (mines/forests) in fish city 2.

I think Monarchy is the play here. That's the only way to grow your cities, and you need fewer, economically stronger cities for fast Optics. I would completely avoid CoL as there is no synergy with specialists (not PHI, no stone for Pyramids); note that CoL and Philo to get those religions is an option if you're going for iso culture victory, but you don't have the leader traits or marble to really boost such a plan.

What Zara does have is ORG for cheap lighthouses and CRE for fast border pops (flexible city placement + fogbusting) and cheap libraries. This is useful as we won't need to whip these buildings (given our limited happiness). Also we can ignore Agriculture entirely here, which is good given his starting techs.

Here I went for AH-Wheel-Fishing-Pottery, Sailing-Masonry is next for GLH in city 2 (more of an investment for post-Astro economy, and I think it's safe to build around T70 on immortal (but I might be wrong here). Worker improved pigs, then 2 mines, then road to city 2, and next cottaging. Those mines will help build workboat and lighthouse in city 2, helping me delay BW after Masonry. I probably show go BW after that to accelerate great lighthouse with chops, then the question is whether to get writing first or straight to monarchy.

First settler delayed a bit so I could have 4 warriors, as I like doubling them when advancing to fogbust the north and south side.


View attachment 699283

Thanks for playing along!


Interesting tech path. I went AH-BW first and then fishing. I settled second city north of pig#2 but I think our location to get floodplain makes great sense! I considered GLH and prob should have gone for it, but was more concerned with happiness here.


Also you will soon realize a problem with city placement #4. I settled 3rd city on the copper to get fish but miss the whale. That also screwed up getting a lot of warriors as I needed axes for barbs.

 

[Tecumseh1]

T36

Spoiler :

I risked settling 1S, though there likely is something in the N tiles that I miss. Losing a wet corn for 20T would hurt of course, but +1 for the whole game is a lot. Then again, 2W is likely a food res (yay it was pigs!). Went for the N spot first because it's connected, 3rd to grab pig+fps. Not sure if I can make a play for GLH (maybe not hopeless in the N city?), but hoping earlier expansion will be worth it. Mids would be so good here and it's a tempting shot even without stone.

View attachment 699297

Mids also crossed my mind after thinking about this thread. In game I didn't consider it (playing autopilot I guess). I never go for it without stone or industrious but this might be a good situation given happiness situation. Might be more worth it than GLH as getting earlier Optics/Astro probably outweighs later game trade routes. But I don't know about that..

 

[sampsa]

@Tecumseh1

Spoiler :

Also it's tricky to bulb on the way to optics especially since I went fishing pretty early.

In general, you shouldn't be bulbing anything on the way to optics, rather get there asap with cottages. Try to have 2*GS ready post-optics to double bulb astro.

Interesting tech path. I went AH-BW first and then fishing.

For me it's clear it's a pottery before BW start. Green mines take care of and the sooner you can work the fp cottages the better. OK, maybe only knowing it's isolation makes it "clear", but even without knowledge you can see quickly that you lack , not .

Mids also crossed my mind after thinking about this thread. In game I didn't consider it (playing autopilot I guess).

Probably it's just best to get GLH and get some extra cities (thanks to ORG). 500 is a huge price.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Catching up pretty well on tech now at 1470 AD. Got good trade value for education and steel. Short detour to economics then deciding between rifling/cavalry or grenadier rush. Probably rifles as I don't have an army or navy yet. Two guys are pulling ahead in tech but not unreachable. I can't afford to sit around like a goof much longer as someone is going to declare with my pathetic power ratio.

Tech situation:

 

[Tecumseh1]

I've run caste most of the game and still in it. Going to switch back to slavery and into free market after econ and then focus on production. Hmm maybe I should have been building HAs/chariots and trebs instead of gold. I have great merchant also landed on another continent so have enough to upgrade some guys.

 

[antimony]

Btw a "good" optics date is something sub T130, at which point you want to save 2 GS to bulb Astro. Getting a 3rd great person is difficult without PHI or CoL.

The math on Monarchy:

The full cost of Monarchy if you wouldn't be teching Myst - Medi - Priesthood otherwise (note: if you go for CoL, you have to choose Poly instead of Medi to preserve the Astro bulb and prevent the Philo one) is about 675 raw beakers. You would need 540 library-boosted commerce to make up for that before Optics. Of course there are other future benefits to the extra happiness like flexibility in whipping, not having to wait for Optics to grow your cities, etc. Note that a good food city (2 food resources or one food res. + floodplains) with granary is going to grow by one size in 2-3 turns if you're not happiness-capped and making the extra warriors is not a big issue when you don't have Alpha to use the extra production during the teching phase.

So for example, referring to my T36 map above:

Spoiler :

That pig+floodplains city (3) could ideally be size 9 for pigs + 6 cottages + 2 scientists, so that's 5 pop over happy cap.

My capital + cities 2/4 area has pigs, 7 good cottageable tiles (6 rivers + extra silk) + 13 coast tiles, so that's 21, and let's add 6 scientists for 27 pop, a total of 14 over happy cap (cap is 5 + 4 + 4).

An extra 19 pop producing 2 commerce over 15 turns, or 3 over 10 turns, already makes up for the full cost of Monarchy. I might not actually reach all those extra pop, but many of them will produce 3 commerce or be worked more turns. The capital and pigs + FP city could definitely be size 9, and the fish cities could grow quite a bit too.

 

[antimony]

For military in the long term, aiming for grenadiers + cannons is great value, because chemistry gives you frigates as well. On immortal, maces (if you get CS in a trade) + trebs in galleons might suffice for a bit while waiting for upgrades, haven't tried it.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Btw a "good" optics date is something sub T130, at which point you want to save 2 GS to bulb Astro. Getting a 3rd great person is difficult without PHI or CoL.

The math on Monarchy:

The full cost of Monarchy if you wouldn't be teching Myst - Medi - Priesthood otherwise (note: if you go for CoL, you have to choose Poly instead of Medi to preserve the Astro bulb and prevent the Philo one) is about 675 raw beakers. You would need 540 library-boosted commerce to make up for that before Optics. Of course there are other future benefits to the extra happiness like flexibility in whipping, not having to wait for Optics to grow your cities, etc. Note that a good food city (2 food resources or one food res. + floodplains) with granary is going to grow by one size in 2-3 turns if you're not happiness-capped and making the extra warriors is not a big issue when you don't have Alpha to use the extra production during the teching phase.

So for example, referring to my T36 map above:

Spoiler :

That pig+floodplains city (3) could ideally be size 9 for pigs + 6 cottages + 2 scientists, so that's 5 pop over happy cap.

My capital + cities 2/4 area has pigs, 7 good cottageable tiles (6 rivers + extra silk) + 13 coast tiles, so that's 21, and let's add 6 scientists for 27 pop, a total of 14 over happy cap (cap is 5 + 4 + 4).

An extra 19 pop producing 2 commerce over 15 turns, or 3 over 10 turns, already makes up for the full cost of Monarchy. I might not actually reach all those extra pop, but many of them will produce 3 commerce or be worked more turns. The capital and pigs + FP city could definitely be size 9, and the fish cities could grow quite a bit too.

Thanks. I haven't thought enough about getting max value from monarchy in this situation. I usually just build 1 and sometimes 2 warriors in capital.

 

[antimony]

Yes, it's a bit more complicated because of unit maintenance, but here I would still rather grow my cap by 4 rather than work a size 4 coastal city on the other side of the island, for example.