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Growth and Science

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by EriktheRead, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    Hey guys. Still loving the mod.

    How do I compete with the AI when it comes to science and growth? I food focus, only build one settler in capital, make sure i have a good food start, build farm clusters, develop food resources, grab TOA or HG if i can, and beeline writing and education, etc. I still cant keep up. I usually play emperor level and beat it easily with BNW. I dropped to king, and I'm still getting era gapped by the time i reach education.

    Is there some strategy I'm missing here? Even civs that have fought the whole game or concentrated on other things have better capitals and science than me.
     
  2. hokath

    hokath King

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    Two things:
    1) Don't forget internal trade routes. The scale based on the difference in population, so they are better if you send from big to small
    2) You may find (especially if you have bonuses to specialists) that your cities are working a lot of specialists. This is optimal in terms of yields, but bad for growth in the long term. Don't let your cities go GP crazy - I either fully micromanage or switch on "manual specialist control" for 10 or 20 turns to allow for a growth spurt.
     
  3. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    You aren't the only one who had that problem. I am also experiencing the exact same thing since I was also an emperor level player before playing this mod. What you have to do is actually do manual specialist control and get rid of all the unnecessary specialists since they take up a lot of food (the city management AI prioritize specialists first, even if you click food focus) and that will grow your empire a lot faster. Also, CBP is a lot harder to wonder rush/spam since the AI is more than likely to rush the early wonders more quickly (they can beat you even if you are Ramses and gold invest into wonders since they have workers start and bonus production and science).

    Also, don't bother saving scientists for late game bulbs, I think they're capped to a certain amount depending on the era they spawned, so it is actually better to use them (you should consider scientist teching since you will want a science edge early, you can't actually out tech the AI here without some significant natural wonder tile advantages).

    Hope this helps you since I've basically played a couple of weeks of this mod trying to figure it out. But it feels like the difficulty spike is basically a level above the base game.
     
  4. supracseduch

    supracseduch Warlord

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    I find that you shouldn't actually focus on growth too much in the early game as that will lead to an increase in population which in turn increases your unhappiness to uncontrollable levels. Unhappiness affects your national yields, and that includes science. Only your tallest cities can support a big population, and even they are prone to so much unhappiness because of the AI's significant boosts. It's better to just make sure that every city has a library, with at least two or three cities having scientist specialists so they can alternately give birth to great scientists for the rest of the game. Also build the next scientist specialist buildings in those cities, along with the School of Philosophy, and Gardens. (I prefer making my "science cities" next to rivers). Academies are really damn good. I only ever use GS's instant science ability in the atomic/information era. You can gradually shift your focus to growth after you discover key techs that support growth. I manually switch to growth focus when I pop a Great Merchant's Trade Mission ability though. With this strategy, I find that I am not too far behind the AI's tech.
     
  5. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    I watch my specialists, and only use the ones I find necessary. Is it a good idea to use scientists to get an edge, or is the growth stunting not worth it? When i get them, I dont save them, I either plant (if I can get the equivalent of the bulb in, say, 100 turns or so) or instant bulb.

    Had not thought of using internal trade routes, good idea.

    I do play Egypt, and at emperor/ king difficulty level I can usually get any two Ancient wonders before the ai takes everything.

    I usually play huge maps, usually communitas map because its beautiful, with 24 city states and 12 civs. I usually open with progress.

    My general opening build order is scout/scout/stone henge/monument/TOA (Egypt) or scout/scout/shrine/granery/monument (anyone else).
     
  6. Sendaf

    Sendaf Chieftain

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    I find that 1 or 2 civs will snowball to a significant tech advantage on higher difficulties. Do your best to organize diplomatic advantages against these civs. Also remember that science gained from international trade routes scale based on the targets science. Each trade route can act as a free academy while giving relativly little bonus to the more advanced civ
     
  7. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    This is only a seeming contradiction to what the others said.
    You have to focus on growth as soon as you stop expanding.

    If initial scouting reveals a lot of desireable city locations, you might have a hard time managing your happiness while expanding. It will also be very difficult to keep science up, because your underdeveloped cities don't produce much science while having lots of unhappiness preventing growth.

    I follow the following principles, works ok so far to catch up in terms of science during midgame (on Immortal, works very well with Carthage, my preferred civ):
    1. Scout ahead, grab some huts. Check available space.
    2. Initial build order: scout-scout-shrine-monument.
    3. If enough space, start with the progress tree. The opener benefits greatly from being taken early and boosts science.
    4. Follow the progress tree. Take Expertise next (+building construction, +worker speed), then Organisation (food and culture when finishing a building).
    5. Don't focus on food much yet. Focus on producing buildings which grant you food+culture through the back door.
    6. Switch to the tradition tree. You've taken everything you need in Progress. if you look closely, the lower part of the tree isn't too exciting.
    7. Use internal trade routes to supercharge your capital with food. Assure growth in your capital by prioritizing growth buildings there. Let your capital grow, make it your supercity. This gives you a powerful city capable of getting the occasional wonder. Sure, sending them from big to small is better regarding yields (and should be used to kickstart baby cities). But having a powerful capital has it's merits, too.
    8. Finishing the Tradition tree will eventually grant you countless specialist slots for only one food! If you do it right, they can be fed by 2 internal trade routes, leaving your capital a powerful, prosperous city even without those slots. But you really have to focus on food in the capital. Use the farm adjacency bonus to boost food production. One of the pitfalls here is to kill all your growth and not having your capital grow properly.
    9. Tradition benefits greatly from the "Mastery" follower belief (+2 yield for each specialist)!!!
    10. Another pitfall is not producing enough science in your satellite cities. But remember, you have boosted specialists! Build libraries and universities ASAP to get scientist specialists everywhere. They'll grant 5:c5science:2:c5culture: each by midgame. They can also help you avoid excessive growth in satellite cities while you're still expanding and happiness is low.
    11. "Splendor" from the tradition tree grants you 3 culture from each monument. Together with the culture from scientist slots it will help you to get enough culture to get enough policies.
    12. To further profit from synergies, build one of each guild and the national monument in your capital. Great persons incoming!
    13. Again, you'll really need to assure enough food for your capital. You'll most likely have to manually control tiles&specialist and occasionally leave specialist slots unsused.

    This build isn't tested in too many games, so take it with a grain of salt.
     
  8. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    Which lux resource do you think helps the most with this? I usually see if i can get sugar (3/4 start food, 20% growth w/monopoly, need metal casting to develop) or citrus (3 start food, only needs bronze or iron working to develop, +3 food each for monopoly).
     
  9. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    What do you mean? I try to grab the lokal monopoly whatever it is (usually there's one dominant luxury around each starting position. I doubt you could easily "choose" another one unless conquering heavily).

    Or do you reroll if you don't like the local luxuries?

    Of course, a food-poor start or generally bad capital location won't work well for the above strategy. But your capital is very likely to be one of your best city locations anyway due to mapscripts AFAIK (unless CBP changed something).
     
  10. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    Oh, sorry. I re-roll. I have the "swap start position" mod, and i usually wont play a start that I cant get a good game rolling with. Limited play time and need to have fun and all that.
     
  11. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    I have huge difficulties adjusting to this mod. I am a King player in vanilla and struggle to keep up with AI on prince with this mod. It is turn 190 on Prince and I have 5 cities now similar as most AI. Best AI got 13 mill people and I got 4 and the one with 13 mill only got 3 cities. My cities is around 10-12 and most other AI got 18+. I have tried to to build buildings giving me food bonus, done the progress tree. I am number 4 of 8 on techs so not doing very bad there. It is just the growth that is the main problem. My capital has been pumping out 3-4 caravans with food to my other cities just to keep up and my capital has acutally fallen behind the others now. :lol: I have limited the amount of spesialists to help with food. Built lots of farms, graneries, acuaduts ect.

    I am really interested in knowing what people are doing to stay ahead in the population race since that race seems to be the most important one for late game. :) Is it even possible? Is it just a feature so you cant outrun the ai?

    Turn 190 and I got 650 points and ranked number 6 out of 8. Leader got 1200 points. Can I even catch him?
     
  12. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    • You might have too many specialists. Assign specialist slots and worked tiles manually in this early stage of the game.
    • Don't allow your citizens to work bad or even average tiles - always take good care that they have a sufficient number of good (and improved!) tiles to work.
    • A quick glance on the left column of EUI shows you all your cities and how many turns it will take for them to grow, so you'll see problems easily.
    • Use the farm adjacency bonus (farms produce extra food when at least 2 other farm tiles border them). Very often this will result in triangle blocks of 3 farms, but circular arrangements and many other versions are possible.
    • Don't build settlers when your city would grow in a turn or 2 - it will delay the extra citizen unnecessarily.
    • Don't forget lighthouses in coastal cities, fish are worthless without them, even with fishing boats.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Maybe you should give more information so people don't have to guess what you're doing wrong.
     
  14. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    The AI is always miles ahead of me in population. I don't fret about it. The growth bonuses they get are insane.

    Prioritizing science techs/buildings/specialists will, in my experience, always gets you head-to-head with the AI around mid-late game anyway.
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    They don't get any insane growth bonuses.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    This is correct. Especially on prince.

    G
     
  17. Senteliks

    Senteliks Warlord

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    As those two above me said, it doesn't.It's only mile better than most human players in micromanaging and deciding when and what to construct.
     
  18. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    What are the bonuses like, then?

    Haven't played prince in a while, but on immortal/deity an AI with equal number of cities typically has 1.5x to 2x my pop at all stages of the game.

    Either they get bonuses, or they focus food like crazy.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I'm usually around the same pop as the AI with the same number of cities the few times I play Deity, maybe 10% behind. Naturally if an AI expands out of control and takes over half the map he is going to out-populate me a bit.
     
  20. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Which isn't the worst thing considering you can get way more production from specialists or other sources (like sea tiles) than in vanilla. Well-devoleped cities are also relatively "cheap" in terms of happiness, only expansion and war really make happiness-management tough.
    Or at least that's how it turns out in my games - stagnation of number of cities causes a big happiness surplus eventually.

    One basic thing to understand is that there are basically 3 types of cities in CBP:
    • Your capital (which possibly has all kinds of tradition bonuses)
    • Cities with production surplus
    • Cities with low production

    The low-production cities basically just fulfill their own (happiness system) needs, meaning they produce only libraries, monuments, shrine, walls and such stuff. They augment your science, culture and faith and should ideally not cost too much happiness.

    Cities with better production produce mostly the same buildings, but additionally they produce all the mobile stuff - workers, cargo units, diplomats and military units.
    As you need a building chain to produce either diplomats or military units effectively, you should specialize your cities on either of the two.
    For military units, the building chain is forge-barracks-arsenal-colloseum, usually in this order and possibly augmented by heroic epic (attention: only affects land units!).

    A fourth type of city might be "guild city", requiring very good food and relatively good production (as the basic buildings still need to be constructed). As you'll probably want them to be on your borders (grabbing a lot of tiles), they'll probably also need walls and such.

    As you can probably see, low-production cities are usually best avoided, as you'll hardly ever have enough cities to let some only fulfill their own needs. If you found cities yourself, always keep an eye out for enough production and food (the most essential things). The low-production cities in my empires are usually those I conquered or had to found for filling strategic "gaps" on the map. Or those that exist as cannon-fodder between my rivals and me.
     

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