guerillas, missunderestimated?

[The Last Conformist]

I think Guerilla should be made cheaper. If it was made to cost less than Riflemen, then as an extra bonus you'd be able to draft them if you've got Replaceable Parts but not Rubber, which would seem to make exellent sense.

 

[Jawz II]

well if dont change them i defenitly change the price,right now they cost the same as infantry,maybe same as mech infantry too,i dunno,ridicupos,they r just like infantry but with 6 defense instead o 10

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I think Guerilla should be made cheaper. If it was made to cost less than Riflemen, then as an extra bonus you'd be able to draft them if you've got Replaceable Parts but not Rubber, which would seem to make exellent sense.

I got C3C a couple of month ago, and going straight from vanilla CivII to C3C, I felt the need to play a few games at the lower levels just to get a feel for the new gameplay (new wonders, units, civs) as well as the different behaviour of some units (Destroyers are much faster in C3C... )

...on using Guerrillas:

I generally prefer horsemen/knights to swordsmen/Medeival Infantry, but I usually have a few MI laying around when I hit the industrial ages. I generally use them to shore up the defenses in border cities in peacetime. In stacks they can move through enemy territory fairly well, especially if you keep them on high ground. Diversionary "attacks", quelling resistance, etc., are good ways to use G's. I generally use them in the less risky or lower priority ways I'd use infantry - every Guerilla quelling resistance or guarding roads/railroads is one less infantry needed to do that job - and one more infantry on the advance...

...ways to improve the Guerrilla - 2 ideas:

some form of "hit and run" tactic would be nice. Maybe a "skirmish" attack, where the G attacks once or twice and retreats, regardless of whether he's "winning" or "losing" the battle.

STEALTH. In one of the C3C Scenarios (the one set in France with the religious artifacts) there are a number of units that are "invisible" except to other "invisible" units. It would be really nice if the Guerrillas could slip into enemy territory without being seen the instant they cross the border. It would be nice to have a stack of G's 6 or 8 squares deep on the turn war is declared...

I haven't played a game long enough to know if the TOW infantry upgrade is useful or not...maybe I should disable cultural, diplo, and space race victory conditions! <g>

 

[a4phantom]

Good idea Scoutsout. Hey, how fast are destroyers in Conq? I'm trying to upgrade my PTW game via editor, and noone seems to be responding to my thread in the Customization forum!

 

[zurichuk]

In the games I play, guerillas are as normal, a rubber-less alternative, i have added stronger, more expensive Urban Guerillas with hidden nationality (ok the name doesn't say much, apart from my lack of imagination and the fact I can't be bothered to make new civilopedia entries) , Terrorists which are invisible and hidden nationality and my marines detect invisible. Also my subs are hidden nationality.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by a4phantom
Good idea Scoutsout. Hey, how fast are destroyers in Conq? I'm trying to upgrade my PTW game via editor, and noone seems to be responding to my thread in the Customization forum!

You might want to consider getting C3C before plowing too much work into editing naval units...

Naval Unit differences in C3C:

Destroyers: Can move 8 squares, can see subs, and has air defense capability. I no longer build subs to find subs...

Cruisers: (new to C3C) has RADAR, and can move 6 squares. Can bombard and has air defense. Makes a better transport escort than a destroyer, attacks/defends at 15/10. Costs 160 shields compared to 200 for a Battleship.

Carriers: Carriers now move 6 squares (one faster than a Battleship).

Transports: Now carry only 6 units instead of 8, but they move a square faster.

As a general rule, I place much more emphasis on land warfare than naval warfare. Having said that, the new naval units do add some interest. A "picket line" of destroyers and cruisers off my coast makes an excellent early warning/first line of defense against a naval invasion.

"Capital Ships" (Battleships and Carriers) are less valuable in C3C. I can build 2 Destroyers and a Cruiser for the cost of 2 Battleships. Since they're faster, I can cover a lot more ocean with those 3 ships...

 

[planetfall]

Guerrillas and invisible trait was broken in PTW. I have not seen any posts of this being fixed in C3C.

PF

 

[a4phantom]

Thanks again Scoutsout. You're right of course, but I don't have $30.

PF - what do you mean "Guerrillas and invisible trait was broken in PTW"?

 

[Jawz II]

i just changed their movement from 1 to 2,cause thats what makes them retereat and stuff right?

i havent gotten to usin them in my new game,but im pretty sure the 2 movement will make them worth while

 

[planetfall]

Originally posted by a4phantom

PF - what do you mean "Guerrillas and invisible trait was broken in PTW"?

You would expect making adding invisible to guerrilla trade is a no brainer. The problem is the balance between guerrillas and invisible. It's even worst if you add hidden-nationality. I tried for about 6 weeks to find a good balance and then gave up. Some had speculated that the developers wanted guerrillas to be invisible but also had problems with balance.

In a nutshell, the problem is how do you configure guerrillas to add invisible and then have AI build guerrillas as a supplemental military unit and not as primary. I think my goal was to have AI build of about 10%. They liked the guerrillas too much. Even though I had some land units with detect invisble trait on. I tried moving defense to 2 and that did not have much effect. I think my final was 4.2.2 with invisible, hidden nationality. It was the best, but still not good enough for me.
As I recall, the AI built guerilla about 50% of the time with that reduced values.

Again these are rough rememberances, but at least you have an idea of what happens when change guerrilla stats. For some reason it does not effect other units. But then again I have not tried adding invisible to other land units.

PF

 

[scoutsout]

In a game that I played this weekend, I got invaded by the Byzantines by 90 units divided into three 'stacks of death'. I saved the game on the turn after the invasion, but before war was declared. I may post the saved game this evening here or in a new thread, if people might want to try repelling this invasion... (I pulled it off, and it was FUN!)

Anyway - among the stacks that Theodora sent against me were some guerillas. Here is the behavior I noted that makes the guerrilla potentially useful (or annoying):

It can move on one turn in enemy territory, and still 'bombard' when counterattacked. It does not need to waste a turn fortifying to bombard when counterattacked.

With artillery, you can either move the piece, fire it, or fortify it. Only when you fortify it will it fire against a counterattacking enemy unit.

"The Last Conformist" and I have had several exchanges of ideas on the use of "Combined Arms". IMHO, the Guerrilla has a place in combined arms - from the stand point of force preservation and "economy of force'. If you have a stack of Infantry, Guerillas, Artillery, and Cavalry moving on an enemy city, the Guerilla will 'bombard' any counterattacking enemy unit - even if it moved the previous turn. Try this with artillery - you can't do it. With Arty, you can either shoot or move, not both. And when shooting, you only get one shot. You can either fire a volley at the enemy city or unit within range, or fortify it to fire against a counterattack. Put some G's into the stack, and you can focus your artillery fire on that enemy city...

Enemy Guerrillas can be annoying when you are defending your territory by counterattacking a stack of infantry and Guerrillas with tanks. Your tank attacks the stack, a guerrilla opens up with a volley of machine gun fire, and suddenly your veteran tank is fighting a 4 h.p. Infantry with only 3 h.p. remaining!

The Guerrilla upgrades to TOW Infantry. Looking at the civilopedia, it describes this unit as "effective against tanks". Let's see, I've got to invade somebody in the modern era... wonder if it would be worth taking a few TOW gunners along to repel the enemy's counterattacks with tanks...maybe not throughout the campaign, but defending that first beach-head against that first counterattack...

Just some food for thought.

 

[combat101]

I always use them

 

[scoutsout]

Here's that saved game I mentioned in my previous post, you'll find some Guerrillas in the game here:

Theodora's Folly

Have a look, and have some fun!

 

[The Last Conformist]

scoutsout: Actually, an Arty unit can move/bombard offensively in your turn and still do a defensive bombard in the AI's. So unless you're attacked with more units than you've got artillery pieces in the stack, the Guerillas won't get to do their defensive bombard.

Still, sending Guerillas along in Inf/Arty stacks isn't useless - for one thing, it's one more unit the enemy has to defeat before he can capture your precious Arty.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
scoutsout: Actually, an Arty unit can move/bombard offensively in your turn and still do a defensive bombard in the AI's. ....

Did they change that from vanilla CivIII? I thought Artillery had to be fortified to get that volley against an attacker...

 

[a4phantom]

==Still, sending Guerillas along in Inf/Arty stacks isn't useless - for one thing, it's one more unit the enemy has to defeat before he can capture your precious Arty.==

Sure, but infantry would be one more stronger unit.

 

[The Last Conformist]

scoutsout: I think it's worked that way since the beginning, but it's of course a while since I played Vanilla.

a4phantom: Yes, but Guerilla are practically free if they're upgraded from old Medievals. I wouldn't advocate building new ones as Arty escorts.

 

[Denarr]

I usually recycle the monkeyboys as soon as I can aquire better units.
The Civ II version were only usefull because of the movement off road, and the fact that you could acquire so many 'nones' for free by allowing an enemy to take one of your cities after the acquisition of Guerilla Warfare and filling the countryside with a swarm of guerilla.
The loss of the None unit really reduced the value of the guerilla, in my opinion, and definitely changed the overall tactics of the game.

 

[ArmPilot]

Every keeps saying the same thing about getting thm only from upgrades. If thats what your gonna say then don't, its spam imho.

 

[a4phantom]

Fair enough, but it certainly reinforces the position that the guerilla as is is not a very useful unit.