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Guiling other civs into attacking you

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Resident Mario, Dec 8, 2013.

  1. Resident Mario

    Resident Mario Warlord

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    NYC
    Basically, a thread about using subterfuge to negate warmongerer penalties.

    I had to concede a theoretically winnable Emperor game today (the leader was perhaps ten techs ahead of me, though) as a Zulu warmongerer because of chain denounciations/mass war declare after puppeting an aggressive neighbor. As much fun as it is to beat off three superiorly technologically advanced civs with Zulu spear spam and cannon, the situation was clearly untenable.

    I think I'm going to run a few test games in the future and see how convincing of a job I can make of manipulating other civs - this seems like a dense enough topic for a lot of discussion.

    1) As a yearling warmongerer without strong diplo ties to wield, would it have been better to purposefully push diplo penalties onto Sully and keep my army weak, force a defensive war, then accidentally conquer him? The combat AI seems improved from the pitiful vanilla one, but still not without stupid idiosyncrasies.

    2) Is the treasury still considered part of your army reserve? That would likely make this quite a bit more difficult.

    3) "Sure, give us ten turns to prepare" for DoW is only diplomatically binding, correct?

    4) Where can I find a thorough list and/or discussion of diplo modifiers?
     
  2. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    4 Hexes from FoY
    I you want to provoke a DOW on you:
    • Have a weak army but make sure you are able to pump out units sharpish.
    • Steal land with a GG
    • Spread your religion and tell them to "push off"
    • Finally denouncing when the AI is hostile usually provokes war if your army is apparently weak.

    Unit maintenance comes right out of your treasury.

    No you can break your word when the time comes but you'll suffer a diplomatic penalty. I prefer to bribe rather than commit myself to DOW in 10 turns time. That way I can be the last one to DOW suffering less of a warmongering penalty(I believe there is no warmonger penalty with civs for DOWing when they are already at war with the civ in question).
     
  3. WarIsPeace

    WarIsPeace Chieftain

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    Another trick to make your military appear weak is to not upgrade your military units, but keep cash in reserve so you can upgrade them when the DOW finally arrives.
     
  4. Resident Mario

    Resident Mario Warlord

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    When I say "Treasury" I mean whether or not your absolute gold reserve is factored into your military strength, for buying units post-DoW. If I have a thousand on reserve I can insta-raise three Zulus turn-of; do the AI calculations properly account for this?

    What's the (probably quite fuzzy) military strength boundary area at Hostile? Does his score have to be 1.5 mine? Twice mine?

    How good is the AI at judging upgrade worth? It doesn't seem to me like leaving my units un-upgraded until the attack comes will be particularly effective if he properly accounts for the possibility of their upgrading.

    Another idea is leaving a unit within a turn's hammering in each of your cities. Instant army, just add a turn; this I'm sure isn't accounted for by the AI.
     
  5. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Why bother? The diplo hit for declaring war is small, the city taking is where the lion's share is.
     
  6. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    hamburg, germany
    This.
    Forward settling to provoke a DoW is a thing of the past, nowadays you get hit as soon as you go offensive.

    In my first BNW game i "defended" against an invasion by taking his capital and 2nd city, got a DoW by my other 2 neighbours (and former friends) in response.
    currently there is no escaping this, better find some friends who don't care if you want to warmonger.
     
  7. Resident Mario

    Resident Mario Warlord

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    Honestly then I don't see how early warmongering is even possible outside of corner cases.
     
  8. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist King

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    The advantages you have in early warmongering are 1. a small hit against an enemy early on can have ramifications that screw them up for the rest of the game and 2. Civs you haven't met yet don't know of your warmongery ways. So early war is still pretty profitable if you take 1-2 cities while you only know 1-2 other civs; you ensure you have less-threatening rivals nearby for the rest of the game, you get a boost and the rest of the world doesn't even know you did anything.

    You just have to do it quite early, since if the rest of the world is discovering Astronomy, you risk having them show up in the middle of your conquest, and that's...
     
  9. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    I reckon the best possible way to warmonger without getting the negative penalty is to forward settle an AI with a much weaker army than they have. Once they declare war destroy their army, then make peace and ask for a city in return. If you capture their workers, pillage their improvements as well as forward settling to deny them key resources and capturing 1 city that is usually enough to weaken them for the remainder of the game.
    If you're playing domination you probably don't have to take their capital immediately, you can fence them in and keep them weak until you have dealt with other more powerful adversaries. This will help keep your unhappiness down and makes you appear less warmongering to the other AI.
     

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