Gustav Adolf: Genocidal Maniac?

[Mr. Grieves]

Hey Guys,

I'm new to CFC and quite new to the civ franchise in general. I'm really enjoying it, but one AI oddity particularly strikes me as weird. Sweden always, and I mean - in my games - always is a warmongering menace to the world.

For one, this isn't really reflected in their AI flavour stats, but it really doesn't make sense, seeing as though their special ability is worth close to nothing if they're not friends with a couple of civs.

I mean, I can kind of see them going for the honour policy track every single time because of the free Great General for gifting to a city-state, but after that they just seem to squander their seriously overpowered and awesome SA.

Don't get me wrong, I love to liberate my buddies and nuke Stockholm to hell as much as the next person, but they'd simply be much more powerful if they played peacefully and had a carpet of doom of academies, right?

 

[Viregel]

1. Gustav Adolf. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

2. I would agree that this is pretty strange. However, was most of the warmongering around the Renaissance/Industrial Eras? If so, that's where Gustav's UU's come in, so he probably wants to take advantage of them.

Edit: Welcome to Civfanatics!

 

[Mr. Grieves]

1. Very true, corrected that one.

2. In general, they really start pouring down hell around the time Caroleans and Hakka~ come around, yes. But I've had him DOW me in classical/medieval more than a couple of times too, and in my last game he had completely absorbed Elizabeth before 1AD. (can't blame him for that one, that's just good sense)

It's just that I don't recall ever having had a lasting friendship with him, while I have with other, more obviously combat-oriented civs.

3. Thanks

 

[PhilBowles]

I never had an issue with Sweden as a warmonger before my current game, but in this one they moved a giant army towards Marrakech - I had a defensive pact with Morocco, and it so happened that when it triggered the Swedish army was surrounding Damascus (guess who I was playing). It was one of the tensest battles I've survived.

He was quiescent after that, right up until he and Genghis decided on a joint attack (Genghis had wanted Medina all game, but as it was in hills squeezed between mountains and Lake Victoria it was pretty impregnable). As usual the Mongols were repelled, but this time Gustav took Damascus and is about to take Baghdad. The fun part? He'll have Rifling any minute.

As for the AI personality, this is largely how Gustav should play - Sweden has two UUs, one of them among the best in the game, and in reality Gustav was one of Europe's greatest generals. Firaxis does seem to have made some effort to model AI personalities on the historical leader, not necessarily the strengths of the civ they lead.

 

[Heerlo]

It's just that I don't recall ever having had a lasting friendship with him, while I have with other, more obviously combat-oriented civs.

Reminds me of how in my current singleplayer game I've been good friends with Mongolia(ironically), and in a multiplayer game with my brother, an AI Sweden went Autocracy and attacked me.

 

[Mr. Grieves]

At least Maria Theresa's goals seem to be aligned with mine for once xD

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Actually.
His likeness to declare war can be as high as 9, and he has also a very high flavor for offensive units (because they really sassy...)

I blame his beard though.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Might have something to do with this uncanny resemblance. Coincidence?

Spoiler :

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

At least Maria Theresa's goals seem to be aligned with mine for once xD

Do they only say that after you've declared war together against someone else?

Also, who's that other guy, Magma Dragoon?

 

[Talcove]

Well, he tries to be friends with everyone, which makes a lot of other Civs mad, so they denounce him and DoW him. Naturally, he has to build a force to counter attack and defend himself. But then everyone thinks he's a warmonger-er for burning all of Denmark to the ground, so then THEY DoW him, and, well, rinse and repeat.

He's just misunderstood is all.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I hardly ever see a warmonger Gus. He's usually quite peace, if not always really friendly.

 

[Brettapod]

It seems like in half my games with him, he's a warmonger, but in the other half he's quite peaceful.

 

[Walter R]

He usually has a go in my games and is sometimes a runaway. I remember in one of my first games on King I got a two-way backstab and DOW from him and Theodora - lost newly-founded Hastings same turn, eventually wiped him out later in game, but since then have been ready to thump him whenever chance presents.
A good few games back he was my nearest neighbour, different landmass separated by about 2 or 3 coastal tiles. I was planning to attack him soon but staying friendly. He DOW'd me the turn my galleases became SOTL?! Bye bye Stockholm.
So yes, he is a warrior.

 

[Loucypher]

One thing to keep in mind with his UA is that the 10% great person bonus isnt the ONLY part. He can opt to give away the Great Generals and Admirals that combat will give him, yielding him quick City State alliances. He also does tend to have a few friends around, least in my game, not sure how that works for him on smaller maps.

 

[adwcta]

Hey Guys,

I'm new to CFC and quite new to the civ franchise in general. I'm really enjoying it, but one AI oddity particularly strikes me as weird. Sweden always, and I mean - in my games - always is a warmongering menace to the world.

For one, this isn't really reflected in their AI flavour stats, but it really doesn't make sense, seeing as though their special ability is worth close to nothing if they're not friends with a couple of civs.

I mean, I can kind of see them going for the honour policy track every single time because of the free Great General for gifting to a city-state, but after that they just seem to squander their seriously overpowered and awesome SA.

Don't get me wrong, I love to liberate my buddies and nuke Stockholm to hell as much as the next person, but they'd simply be much more powerful if they played peacefully and had a carpet of doom of academies, right?

Well, no.

Sweden has AI biases that are designed to get him into war.

7 = One of the highest Diplo Balance ratings. This is the tendency to hate anyone who is ahead in the game; which is never Sweden itself in the early game due to the tundra start bias and Honor opener. This is key. Because they will never have a good start, they will almost never go tradition (even though about 1/4th of the time they would prefer to go tradition; so, you'll occasionally see a non-aggressive Sweden). They are also not expansionist, and not religious, so they will never go liberty/piety. Once you go down Honor, you're pretty much looking for a fight. Add a Diplo Balance rating, and Sweden is very aggressive, but luckily, usually not towards you, because you start out very far behind. So, assuming Sweden has another target it can reach, and you meet Sweden before reaching tech parity with the AI (assuming high difficulty), Sweden will actually be friends with you... eventually. Other civs with high Diplo Balance ratings are Siam, Japan, Elizabeth, Germany*, and Rome. Sound familiar? Yeah, they are all militarily aggressive (if you're wondering why Siam is also so aggressive, now you know).

7 = One of the highest War ratings (their default when they meet someone is to decide whether fighting them would be beneficial, if not, they are friendly or neutral; they will re-evaluate this every couple of turns, so they're basically always looking for reasons to war with everyone). The "friendly" rating will overtake the "war" rating in ~1/5th of Sweden's games, so those should look slightly different (in the same way, Atilla will actually be neutral instead of war/hostile in ~1/40 of his games; Shaka will never not spawn with a War/Hostile default; Genghis Khan, Askia, Herald are actually downright friendly in ~1/3 of their games). Other civs with high War ratings are Songhai, Aztec*, France*, Japan, Mongolia, Huns*, Carthage, Assyria*, Zulu. So, Sweden is in fairly good aggressive company here.

You might think their high scores in "Diplomacy" means they'll actually be diplomatic, but all it means is that they try to curry favor with the CSs and win a diplo victory. It doesn't affect their treatment of major civs (because as long as you're not at war, there's no benefit to a diplo victory from being friends with other civs).

* = has a +1 higher flavor on this than Sweden. No civ has +2 higher flavor than Sweden in these categories.

 

[njmfff]

1. Very true, corrected that one.

2. In general, they really start pouring down hell around the time Caroleans and Hakka~ come around, yes. But I've had him DOW me in classical/medieval more than a couple of times too, and in my last game he had completely absorbed Elizabeth before 1AD. (can't blame him for that one, that's just good sense)

It's just that I don't recall ever having had a lasting friendship with him, while I have with other, more obviously combat-oriented civs.

3. Thanks

1. Gustav Adolf.

2. Sure. He's kinda weird AI. Sometimes he acts like Rammy, sometimes he acts like Hiawatta. He DoW me early in my latest game, around late classical era. He was smarter then Monthy tho, he brought few catapults. Monthy brought only jags and archers and feed me few of his trade routes for free. Stupid AI.

Weird thing is, I did settle close to Stockholm, but he never complained about it. He just attacked. Monthy on the other hand, complained that I settled near him, but I think Gustav paid him up to attack me when he was losing his units rapidly (Walled City on Hill around river in classical era? Good luck Gustav!)

 

[seanflokstra7]

I usually just meet him, get an embassy, try to trade with him later, but then I FIND out he's dead

Every time I meet him

NO exceptions

 

[Mr. Grieves]

Do they only say that after you've declared war together against someone else?

They say things like that when they ask for a joint DOW and you ask for 10 turns to prepare. I never noticed that before either xD

Actually.
His likeness to declare war can be as high as 9, and he has also a very high flavor for offensive units (because they really sassy...)

I blame his beard though.

Yeah that's true, but I always assumed he was likely to declare war on warmongers, or civs that were all up in his face.

Well, no.

Sweden has AI biases that are designed to get him into war.

7 = One of the highest Diplo Balance ratings. This is the tendency to hate anyone who is ahead in the game; which is never Sweden itself in the early game due to the tundra start bias and Honor opener. This is key. Because they will never have a good start, they will almost never go tradition (even though about 1/4th of the time they would prefer to go tradition; so, you'll occasionally see a non-aggressive Sweden). They are also not expansionist, and not religious, so they will never go liberty/piety. Once you go down Honor, you're pretty much looking for a fight. Add a Diplo Balance rating, and Sweden is very aggressive, but luckily, usually not towards you, because you start out very far behind. So, assuming Sweden has another target it can reach, and you meet Sweden before reaching tech parity with the AI (assuming high difficulty), Sweden will actually be friends with you... eventually. Other civs with high Diplo Balance ratings are Siam, Japan, Elizabeth, Germany*, and Rome. Sound familiar? Yeah, they are all militarily aggressive (if you're wondering why Siam is also so aggressive, now you know).

7 = One of the highest War ratings (their default when they meet someone is to decide whether fighting them would be beneficial, if not, they are friendly or neutral; they will re-evaluate this every couple of turns, so they're basically always looking for reasons to war with everyone). The "friendly" rating will overtake the "war" rating in ~1/5th of Sweden's games, so those should look slightly different (in the same way, Atilla will actually be neutral instead of war/hostile in ~1/40 of his games; Shaka will never not spawn with a War/Hostile default; Genghis Khan, Askia, Herald are actually downright friendly in ~1/3 of their games). Other civs with high War ratings are Songhai, Aztec*, France*, Japan, Mongolia, Huns*, Carthage, Assyria*, Zulu. So, Sweden is in fairly good aggressive company here.

You might think their high scores in "Diplomacy" means they'll actually be diplomatic, but all it means is that they try to curry favor with the CSs and win a diplo victory. It doesn't affect their treatment of major civs (because as long as you're not at war, there's no benefit to a diplo victory from being friends with other civs).

* = has a +1 higher flavor on this than Sweden. No civ has +2 higher flavor than Sweden in these categories.

Thank you for clarifying Diplo Balance, I never did fully understand that flavor stat. It certainly explains why Japan, England and Siam are always starting to suicide into my defenses around the late middle ages, which is when I'm usually starting to lead in tech on Emperor.

I usually just meet him, get an embassy, try to trade with him later, but then I FIND out he's dead

Every time I meet him

NO exceptions

Haha that's weird, I don't think I've ever seen him lose as much as a city to another AI. I did have to hurry to keep greedy, overpowered Austria from taking any of his cities though.

M'n kop staat hem gewoon niet aan

 

[seanflokstra7]

They say things like that when they ask for a joint DOW and you ask for 10 turns to prepare. I never noticed that before either xD



Yeah that's true, but I always assumed he was likely to declare war on warmongers, or civs that were all up in his face.



Thank you for clarifying Diplo Balance, I never did fully understand that flavor stat. It certainly explains why Japan, England and Siam are always starting to suicide into my defenses around the late middle ages, which is when I'm usually starting to lead in tech on Emperor.



Haha that's weird, I don't think I've ever seen him lose as much as a city to another AI. I did have to hurry to keep greedy, overpowered Austria from taking any of his cities though.

M'n kop staat hem gewoon niet aan

Nederlands?

 

[njmfff]

I usually just meet him, get an embassy, try to trade with him later, but then I FIND out he's dead

Every time I meet him

NO exceptions

Sooo true. "Unknown civ lost it's capital". Later found out, oh The Huns have Stockholm.

even Venice lasts longer.

Ps. Why is Venice so stupid? He always gets stuck with just his capital, few units doing nothing? Is Venice bugged? I've rarely ever seen Enrico using his Merchants.