Guy from Scotland faces year in prison for training his dog (to do the Nazi salute)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Ryika, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Ah, yes, the well informed "first hand" opinion of the well known "someone" made authoritative because it is in a video on the internet.

    I come from a time when telling "ethnic jokes" was such a normalized part of the background that no one would have ever considered that they incited hatreds...until someone pointed out that they obviously and certainly did. It is sad to think that such settled matters have to be relitigated every generation, so I prefer to think that you are just a poor representative of yours.
     
  2. Katie88

    Katie88 Warlord

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    As opposed to the opinion of someone with strong opinions and no knowledge of the subject?
     
  3. fanofrazorblade

    fanofrazorblade Chieftain

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    Meanwhile feminists get to twit, kill all white men, and do not get punished for it.


    hmmmmmm
     
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Unfortunately the assumption that I "have no knowledge of the subject" is not widely shared. While I'm not a lawyer, so wouldn't argue how to present such a case with someone who is, I think my statement that "the prosecution would probably argue this way, since it seems like a good shot at making the case, rather than that way that even Katie can see is ridiculous" stands on merit for most people.
     
  5. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    So would it be OK for a group of neo-Nazis to parade in front of a synagogue and shout "Gas the Jews" as long as they accompanied it with "LOL. Joking"?

    I'm just asking, not intending to be provocative at all.

    "LOL. Joking."

    (I am really.)

    You see, we just don't know this numpty in the video. His agenda could be really dark. And unacceptably anti-semitic.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Perhaps if they wore clown make-up?
     
  7. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Yeah. And hooted those clown horns.

    And they could drive up in a clown car, the doors of which all fall off as soon as they stop.

    I love those cars.
     
  8. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2018
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    I'm assuming that's a joke.

    Moderator Action: Please don't quote posts like this, if there is an issue report it and let us deal with it -- Noble Zarkon
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
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  10. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    No I think it was probably hate speech.
     
    Katie88 likes this.
  11. Katie88

    Katie88 Warlord

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    What isn't these days.
     
  12. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Some of us, apparently, have no sense of humour.

    Oh. The irony!
     
  13. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Oh I just didn't personally find it funny, therefore it's objectively not a joke.
     
  14. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Our resident edgelord only responded by complaining about the length of the sentence, which is neither here nor there.

    Not sure what context is needed, because you can simply borrow the context of this incident. I think if the dog had been a young child, a whole lot more people would be much more uncomfortable with this, and the only reason for the bias is specie-ism.

    Oh no, PC culture and SJWs will be the doom of civilisation :scared:
     
  15. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    I don't remember who responded I'm afraid, and I'm not even sure who the resident edgelord is. Could be any number of people really, including me, and I don't even really understand this thing of adding the -lord suffix onto things.

    Well when you re-asked it you did say something like "what if the dog was replaced with a child in this scenario", which I agree has context. Your initial question (as I remember it) seemed to be a much more general "what if an adult taught a young child to do a nazi salute", which could encompass a lot of things.

    It's hard to imagine that there could be a "whole lot more" people being uncomfortable with it, given that seemingly the majority of people in this thread are already uncomfortable with it and he's facing a custodial sentence over it.

    I'm imagining a scenario where (say) a father teaches his son to do a "naughty gesture", which he of course doesn't understand, and then encourages him to go and do it in front of his mother. She responds by being horrified and telling her son to never do that again. The dad films it and has a good laugh. Then everyone gets over it and gets on with their lives. Seems harmless enough to me.

    But... a dog is not a child and a child is not a dog and I don't see the comparison as being useful. I mean, most people wouldn't go and get their son's testicles removed to stop him humping their leg either. If they did I think absolutely there would be a lot more people being uncomfortable with that than they would with a dog, and custodial sentences would be guaranteed. You know... because they're different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  16. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    The dog is kind of irrelevant here. If it were a child then that might be an additional crime, not a different crime.

    The video and the speech in it is the potential crime. Plenty bullies say they are just joking and that it was only banter. What are the limits on the "lol jk" defense and how close does this case come to them?
     
  17. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Agree that the dog is irrelevant (and also no... it doesn't need to be rehomed or retrained).

    Don't know what the limits are on it, but this case doesn't come remotely close to them.
     
  18. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    He put a video of it on the internet. He is deliberately speaking to a broad and open audience, not his living room.

    Just to do some of your own work for you, perhaps deliberately seeking out people to deliver speech to them makes hate speech a crime? Like standing outside a synagogue.
     
  19. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    What are you replying to here? Yes I know he did this.

    I don't actually know if you replying to me as you didn't quote me. Maybe you aren't. If you are I again don't know what statement of mine you're replying to or what work of mine you're referring to. I didn't think that finding ways that hate speech could be a crime (isn't it defined as a crime?!) was a job I was supposed to be doing...
     
  20. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    What he's asking you to do (I think) is this:

    Acknowledging that hate speech is a crime, as you have...
    You insist that this guy is not guilty based on the "just kidding" defense, which apparently most of us don't accept...at least in part because it opens the door to "Moderator Action: <snip> ...what a great idea!...just kidding."
    So you are being asked, "what would be something more practical and acceptable as a defining limit regarding what is or is not hate speech?"

    There was a pretty good hint given, in that I think even you would agree that if the guy had taken his "stupid pet trick" to the steps of a synagogue and greeted people on their way into services with "check out my dog" that should meet the standards, whereas I agree with you that if he had "annoyed his girlfriend," and even showed their friends how annoyed she was, without trying to turn it into his fifteen milliseconds of viral fame, then thought police invading his home saying "show us your pet tricks" would be well into unreasonable.

    So, really, I think the question is the internet. Posting things to the internet is about reaching a mass audience. I'm having this discussion here, instead of in a PM, because even though I'm directly speaking to you and trying to discuss this with you I'm still interacting with the larger audience of other members and lurkers at the same time. That's the internet. And by doing that I accept that my post may get reported by not only you, but anyone who takes offense. That's also the internet. So, ultimately, this guy "took his dog to the synagogue"...and everywhere else...by posting it on the internet.

    Let's be honest, that's what got him in trouble...and I think that's okay. The internet will have plenty of stupid pet tricks, even if some countries don't allow the ones that revolve around Nazi salutes. There isn't going to be a shortage of idiots claiming the 15 milliseconds of fame. Anyone searching for "I wanna find an offensive ethnic joke" will, unfortunately, still be able to find plenty. Personal liberties across the globe are not only not going to collapse, they aren't even going to notice.

    Moderator Action: I know that was meant as an example of an offensive joke, but please don't post things like that on our site. --LM
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2018

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