[BTS] HA timing/tech order

[Jellybug]

Been getting back into it with Toku on Emperor and rolled a map (pangaea/normal speed) that screamed HA's to me. I'm a fringe Immortal player, but I'm a bit rusty. I'm running BUG mod.

Here's the start:

Spoiler :

Don't like settling on coast on pangaea, but we start with fishing. Warrior SE? Settle in place if nothing, move to PH if food?

I played this through BC500.

Spoiler :

Mustered 8HAs around 600BC and went for Byzantium, looking to chop his forest onto Mohandas.

I think with expert eyes I could do much better. I'm looking here mostly for tech order and target selection. Also, 2 3 or 4 cities for this? I think 3 but maybe no. Also is HA even the way to go here or should I select a different gambit? Thank you for the help.

 

[civac]

Some later screenshots would help.

Start looks pretty weak with only 4 food fishing tiles. How fast can you get Bronze Working or Agriculture -> Bronze Working?

 

[Jellybug]

I've overwritten the intermedium, but here's a shot from a couple turns before attacking Byzantium.

Spoiler 650BC :

There is too much unhappiness already... I haven't even whipped yet, really, just chopped w/maths. I think settling the fourth city Satsuma may have been a mistake, but I didn't want Alex to get there and be able to fork Osa, and building the settler let me stagnate for a bit. Redundant monument in Satsuma but religion just spread there.

 

[civac]

Looks reasonable. I think I would have cottaged the flood plain at the capital. I'd consider going for Ghandi. He is weaker and has better terrain.

 

[Nick723]

Some thoughts on the start. I’m no expert on these, so interested to hear from more experienced / skilful players!

My thought process:
- 2 techs away from both AH and BW. Sheep is only 4 food, on its own not worth going AH for. We start with fishing. Therefore focus on seafood and tech to BW (assuming nothing further revealed)
- as such, I would SIP (assuming nothing revealed by movement)
- I’d work a 3 hammer tile to get a quick workboat whilst researching mining.
- then grow to size 2 whilst working clams & start 2nd boat. Switch to worker at size 2. Not sure on timing with BW but either finish it normally or whip it into the 2nd boat.
- likely then go agr -> AH and build some warriors whilst worker chops into settler

Not sure if this really pans out - I struggle to judge timings on these starts without playing them.

 

[Jellybug]

"Not sure if this really pans out" is a good way to summarize my feelings about non--BFC-copper starts with Tokugawa. edit:dashes

 

[civac]

Oh right, Japan doesn't have Mining. Then the plan by Nick723 is probably the best you can do.

 

[Jellybug]

I followed @Nick723 's advice, SIP, WB first, whip worker overflow into workboat. Incidentally, when I whipped the worker, I did so ASAP as I wanted chops sooner rather than maximize overflow, and I think that was right. I have two questions.

1) where to settle? I think the desert between the sheep, rice, and marble is a good second site. Close, claims the sheep and marble, quickly productive. As far as third site, though, there's a cow and a corn site that's really juicy, but settling near the river would lose a forest. Should I claim the more distant corn as a blocker (plop right on a hill to buffer for Alexander the Douchey), then plop the cow later, or settle BFC cow with an eye for the corn after a border pop? Sucks that the western fish aren't on the coast.

2) How soon should I build the 3rd work boat?

T28

Spoiler :

 

[Nick723]

Looks good! I would go for city 2 next to claim land and nice spot (timing should be good for AH as well I think)

Spot 3 I’d go for the closer option to also claim horses (which you’d see before going to that spot). The spot you had last time looks fine. Generally closer cities are better.

The other city which you could get is then 3W of that site on the coast. Can share a clams with capital and then has a clan of its own. Probably go there last as not yet ready for 3rd workboat and no competition to secure. (As a very minor point, foreseeing this spot you could have improved this clams second as the city can only work one clams for now and so you could spare the extra turn movement).

 

[civac]

I'd definitely grow to 3 or 4 here so that the work boat is needed quickly. The second city location is not that appealing.

You have a ton of options with growth of the capital (2,3,4), second worker vs settler. My intuition is second worker first then chop a settler, maybe on size 3. But that could easily be wrong. Maybe try to calculate/sim various options.

Your souther warrior should go 1W or 1 NW. There are non-fogbusted tiles between it and your capital. That's a particular bad spot for a barb spawn.

 

[Jellybug]

@civac would you first expand to the sheep spot or south to the cows?

 

[civac]

Your city planning is fine except 3 should be a bit closer like Nick723 said.

 

[sampsa]

I would go with 3 cities (SIP, north to share clam + claim sheep, south to claim cow). Tough map because no really strong sites and need on put on boats (and not even create 5-tiles in the process). I'm not completely sold that SIP is better than ph.

 

[Jellybug]

As I see it, third city should go down pretty late, since the land isn't contested. Just need enough time to build a gran before whipping HA's

So tech path is AG->AH->Pottery -> Writing (whip library in cap) -> HBR -> Archery? I may not even have enough forests to warrant the maths bulb, but writing may speed the tech rate of HBR itself and allow me to scout for who has metal. Also I think whipping the library before the granary may be in order, as I tend to be waiting on that scientist without PHI.

Also, a micro question. In the above shot, I have a worker chopping. Should the chop go into a settler, a worker, or another WB? Should I continue chopping after AG, or take a break to farm the rice? Should I build a mine after the chop to speed the WB or is the plains hill forest enough oomph to get me a warrior and a workboat in time to whip a settler? These are partially rhetorical... I may wind up doing some test cases.

edit: @sampsa I like your 2 farther north better for the instant trade

 

[sampsa]

Definitely no writing IMO, it's going to slow you down. Put excess into chariots.

 

[Fippy]

Tough map because no really strong sites

? Lots of seafood, corn, cow & sheep, rivers..

 

[Jellybug]

I tried going settler before second worker and it just felt slow. No hurry to settle, plenty to chop and improve esp. without saving for writing/maths, so 2nd worker first got me developed a bit quicker. I held off on the third workboat for a bit, as in my few runs, either the rice farm or the third WB found itself largely unused.

Here's my set just before the first HA's come out. There's a half done chariot in the capital. I plan to start the HA there, 2pop whip it on the turn I grow into unhappiness, and overflow to finish the chariot. By the time that's done, I'll have a few chops ready to start the next HA in the cap. Lost my scouting chariot to an archer kinda unlucky, but without open borders its hard to tell who has what. Byzantium wrapped around India, so Ghandi is a bit of a reach at the moment. Alexander the Douche is plotting, probably on me or Ghandi. Ghandi more likely since he's annoyed at him, but ya never know with that one.

Next tech is a placeholder while I bank. Mysticism might be nice to grab, but maybe peeps will have religion. Other than that I think writing, alpha, maths, currency. Can maybe extort alpha, but not if I go for/ am forced into war with alex

edit: went for the Raxes because I had a little time, and they're cheap. I think the economy here could go south in a hurry so went with the raxes over a few extra chariots. pls let me know if this is a mistake

Spoiler t73 1080BC :

 

[Fippy]

Barracks = must have with Agg. leaders for any rush.
Would actually be shocking if they are missing for HAs

 

[sampsa]

? Lots of seafood, corn, cow & sheep, rivers..

Well, I think clams are not great especially for HA rushing, not many good cottages, no natural . No decent 4th spot, which is of course easy to solve by not settling it. At least there is a decent amount of forests.

Yes, building AGG barracks is so obvious I didn't even mention it.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes, building AGG barracks is so obvious I didn't even mention it.

How do people learn the basics if you don't mention it?

Toku start where you really need that sea commerce to reach HBR soon enough. Workboats are sooo slow and painful. Not that much choice here. 4f sea food too.

Not seens a fish resource in a while on Civ 4. Oops there it is at bottom of pic.